Hindu Seer and related discussion only

12-31-2004, 10:19 AM

Accepted!

12-31-2004, 10:30 AM

For a "southie" Tamilian to call Bihar a "backward" state - now that would be hypocrisy...

12-31-2004, 10:40 AM

I am a Bangolrean not based in Bangalore ofcourse, but you get the point. Straight from the temple town of Thrivarrur very near to Vellankanni. I meant the honest Hindus not the DMK people who have never evolved beyond rape, loot, and desecration of Hindu Gods & Temples. Lets not forget Islam & Christianity.

Sunder · 12-31-2004, 10:47 AM

Back to the topic "Hindu Seer and related discussion only".

01-04-2005, 04:56 AM

The Shankaracharya arrest case has brought forth a lot of emotion within Hindus. somehow a purported 'murder' case is being debated primarily through 'caste' lenses. I find it astounding that people in this age would consider 'caste' as a means to justify or condone an abuse of the justice system.

What I value and cherish is the unity of India in general and Hindus in particular. And when I see some one trying to divide India and Hindus I have an issue with that person.

Many people think dividing up India into north and south, east west, hindi vs non-hindi, or as BIMARU and non-BIMARU is a solution. To me such people are pseudo-pakistanis. Pakistan was created based on similar arguments. One can always find thousand reasons to find and magnify the differences. But I firmly believe that people who do that are fundamentally anti India.

Similarly with people who try to divide our country based on caste. For India to progress and prosper all the castes have to work together. Creating and magnifying caste based fissures is again an anti-India and anti-hindu activity.

Same with religious differences. I think secularism, the real kind, not the pseudo kind, is the way for India. All the religions have to learn to live together and work together for India to progress.

P.S. Let me also add that I would be proud to be called a Bihari, although unfortunately I am not one. I have not lived there, although I have many relatives there. I am also very proud to proclaim myself an Indian, in front of foreigners who have similar disdain for India as many Indians have for Bihar.

01-06-2005, 01:00 PM

Well said Ashok. I couldnt have said it any better. The Indic civilizatiion and heritage is a precious one and worth preserving in a world awash in superficiality and banalisms. Currently i have a number of books by Swami Satyananada Saraswati ( adisciple of Swami Sivananda). THe firstis from BIhar and the later is from the south . But whois counting except for those who have a narrow vision of India

01-10-2005, 09:00 PM

VS is now arrested.

http://www.hindustantimes.com/news/181_119...01301410000.htm

But it is not surprising. This is what I have been saying before.

JS made mistakes, and I'm okay with mistakes - it is forgiveable. But VS is an unrepentant charlatan, with my charge of guru dhroham. This we will not forgive. Its the end for him.

Personally I am happy JS is on bail, and I hope he uses the opportunity to revise the ascension.

To me it looks like a deal was cut. The prosecution deliberately seems to have withheld arguments so as to allow JS out on bail. They seem to be holding back, waiting to unfold a vaster grandplan. I was already wondering what was taking them so long to arrest VS.

As you have already observed before Kaushal, the damage has already been done. I dont think it can be corrected. But I do not think that the average Hindu is a coward or indifferent. I think he is acutely aware, far more than what the average brahmana thinks, that no one is the leader of his religion; he feels he is, and I think he wants to underscore that. Many other brahmanas feel the same way too.

Hindus are not afraid of christians and muslims. Not at all. We will convert them back into Hindus. We do not equate India with Hinduism and vice versa. We equate the world with Hindu values, and vice versa and not at all with communal beliefs. Our reach is larger.

But right now, its the 'orthodox' brahmanas (not you and most others) who is holding back Hinduism from its greater glory. The divisiveness must go first.

I have an Egyptian woman student and recent convert, who wants to become a Hindu priestess, following the tradition of her ancient ancient ancestors who then worshipped Ra and Amon. She wants to serve in a Hindu temple. What shall I tell her?

Regards.

Pathma

01-10-2005, 09:11 PM

QUOTE(Pathmarajah @ Jan 10 2005, 09:00 PM) I have an Egyptian woman student and recent convert, who wants to become a Hindu priestess, following the tradition of her ancient ancient ancestors who then worshipped Ra and Amon. She wants to serve in a Hindu temple. What shall I tell her?

Regards.

Pathma 
Tell her to contact Panini Kanya Mahavidyalaya (google it out) which has branches in Varanasi, Pune, Kerala and other places. Faizaband branch trains even Muslim girls. Check my post in the thread How To Become A Hindu Priest?

01-10-2005, 09:22 PM

Thanks Sudhir,

I have that contact of yours. I have been reading. I will wait a couple of years till the time is right before I introduce her to these things.

Thanks a lot.

Pathma

01-10-2005, 10:58 PM

When Shankaracharya ShrI Jayendra Saraswati was arrested, we had the applauders and justifiers crooning here. The evidence was just about to drop on every one's head like a ton of bricks. After two months, not even a shred of any evidence against the Acharya. Now when he has been released, but instead Junior Acharya has been arrested, same apologies are being proffered.

Don't such apologists have shame??

Pathma says:
QUOTEHindus are not afraid of christians and muslims. Not at all. We will convert them back into Hindus. We do not equate India with Hinduism and vice versa. We equate the world with Hindu values, and vice versa and not at all with communal beliefs. Our reach is larger.

Here is a quote from Pathma's forum (posted by webmaster)
http://www.siddha.com.my/ubb/Forum3/HTML/000058.html
QUOTEIt is best to keep in view that Saivism and Vaishnavism are two separate religions that both share the same scripture and same terminology.

If you are going to even divide up Vaishnavas and Shaivas as belonging to 'different religions' , on what grounds are you talking about worldwide 'Hindu values'?

Are universalism and hinduism only words of convenience for you? May be you should stick with just 'Shaivism', or should we be most accurate and simply call it 'Pathmaism'!

I have only seen such nonsense from some people in ISKCON and now from siddha.com site. .

Are such trends a gain for Hinduism or a loss?

My personal opinion: God save Hinduism from such divisive nonsense. This kind of thinking will turn Hinduism into a de-facto religion of the book(s), Judaism, Christianity or Islam in essence, Hindu in name.

I hold my ground about calling such opinions nonsensical as I can quote a huge number of instances from Hindu texts about Shiva an Vishnu being aspects of same reality.

01-11-2005, 01:01 AM

Some of my comment here:

QUOTEI hold my ground about calling such opinions nonsensical as I can quote a huge number of instances from Hindu texts about Shiva an Vishnu being aspects of same reality.

I agree with you here, Lord Venkateswara is a combination of Vishnu, Shiva, and Subrahmanya. These orthodox Savities and Viashnavites are big time losers here.

QUOTEI have an Egyptian woman student and recent convert, who wants to become a Hindu priestess, following the tradition of her ancient ancient ancestors who then worshipped Ra and Amon. She wants to serve in a Hindu temple. What shall I tell her?

I have nothing against people taking priest Jobs just as long as they are qualified and follow proper conduct of life. In fact this is how it has been all Castes & creeds have their own Temples, and no problem in being open here. But, when it comes to Shankara Mutt, and a Pontiff like Shankarayacharya, ones Karmas, and origin are very important, not any Brahmin can become a Pontiff, A pontiff must be highly evolved being. Only a Seer can find a potential Seer. As far as JS is concerned, if he is a realized being why is so meek, There is a saying that No can stop the wrath of an angry Guru", As a realized being he must be endowed with Narashima Mantra or Siddhi which actually induces fear in your enemy. Why cannot he use it? If he is innocent, TN actions have disturbed is Sanyasin way of life, for which TN has to be punished, why is he not destroying everything in his way? With this VS arrest Kanchi Mutts is discredited for ever. Why are Hindu devotees taking it all in their stride as if it will pass?

Now to BIMARU, the truth is out there. May be I am ignorant, or prejudiced. I have had Northie roomates all good folks. I got nothing against them. My view of North has been of a land that may have had great past, which has been ravaged by Muslim Marauders, plundered and Raped. Cause of India's colonization, and now this losers push their trash language & their culture on the rest of the country. Not to say that I have not seen any Hindi Movies, or visited North. My only suspicion is that all the hard working Indians are paying for the welfare of these Muslim [edited]. May be I am wrong but that is my belief that is hard to change.

01-11-2005, 01:18 AM

A tamasic/rajsic/sattwic person sees the world from his/her standards.

Has it occurred to you that if Shankaracharya shows anger or seeks revenge, then it will be a bigger loss. There are demands of ascetic life that can't be put in a simplistic 'rajasic' view of revenge, retribution, etc.

The theory of karma implies that the 'retribution' usually doesn't come from the aggrieved party. But it does come. World at any time is filled with egotistical, cruel and even normal but temporarily deluded people who would become agents of 'karma' to wreak cruel retribution. In part becoming agents of 'karma' according to their 'sanskaras' or tendencies, and in part also building up their good or bad 'karma'. People of sattvic sanskaras can also become agents of Karma's retribution, but in a different way.

If Shankaracharya doesn't lash out in anger then he so much greater for what is expected of him as an ascetic. Any jailed politician or crook would have been shifted to a hospital on some complaint of feigned 'sickness'. Acharya never demanded such treatments based on lies.

But it is our nation, state of Tamilnadu, chief minister Jayalalitha and supporters of his arrest, that have the sin of the arrest of an ascetic on trumped up charges on their hands. Let them act out their part on the side of justice or against it, and build up their own karma.

QUOTENow to BIMARU, the truth is out there. May be I am ignorant, or prejudiced.

Evidently you are both.

01-11-2005, 01:39 AM

Let me get this clear, a Sanyasins role is to worship GOD, and as a true Sanyasin, if anybody impedes this process, they must be pulled down. There are many tools in the box, a Sanyasin creates his own life, that is he scripts what he will achieve and achieves it. He is in full control of all events. I dont think scripting being arrested is one that qualifies as an achievement. BTW a Guru is Sakshath Parabrahman, which means he is above every Guna and Karma. That is why I stated the saying, "Nobody can stop a Guru's wrath".

You really dont who I am, I am the wrath in the Guru's wrath.

01-11-2005, 11:31 AM

QUOTE(Ashok Kumar @ Jan 10 2005, 10:58 PM)

I dont know what happened to you Ashok Kumar, but now you are hardly the person I knew and whose intelligent posts I used to read. Now its just hurried rantings.

I dont think we discuss the shankaracharya's arrest, bail and evidence on THIS thread. In fact I kept clear of the criminal issues, evidence, etc. We only discussed the ramifications of these events, on the Mutt, the sampradaya, brahmins and on Hinduism.

QUOTEIt is best to keep in view that Saivism and Vaishnavism are two separate religions that both share the same scripture and same terminology.

What is wrong with the above? Hinduism is a generic term that covers broadly 4 religions or sects, which itself are generic terms that covers 200 odd sampradayas. Explaining each one by one is the best way to teach newcomers instead of lumping all together. Presenting each one by one is not dividing, but teaching clearly, showing the similarities, differences and philosophies. Universal Hindu values are shared by all sects and sampradayas. Why is this confusing you? We all share karma, dharma, reincarnation, worship, meditation, yamas, etc.

QUOTEI hold my ground about calling such opinions nonsensical as I can quote a huge number of instances from Hindu texts about Shiva an Vishnu being aspects of same reality.

Did anyone say no? If you had not hurried and read other threads you would have noticed posts explaining it is the same reality to others who argued otherwise. Even when I said "We equate the world with Hindu values, and vice versa <b>and not at all with communal beliefs</b>", still you missed the point.

Anyway, these issues have nothing to do with the seer related issues.

Pathma

01-11-2005, 10:20 PM

Pathma,

I agree, some of my sentences may be classified as rants.

But whatever sophistry in justifying/condoning/applauding behavior I have seen from many postors after shri shankaracharya's arrest, deserves a few.

I have been thoroughly appalled that people would use completely unrelated biases, prejudices and casteist thinking in trying to 'explain' a blatant abuse of power and justice system. Shankararaman was a brahmin too. So, where did all those posts about alleged 'caste biases' of Shankaracharya come into play. He was charged in a murder case, of a brahmin. Even the supreme court now agrees that the evidence is just too thin.

Anyone who drops down to using such sophistry to justify an abuse of justice needs to be challenged and reminded that the ground they stand on is morally vacuous, however pretentious. You may disagree, but you did appear to be on the approving side for this abuse of the political power and justice system.

I sincerely hope for all hindus and for India, that such lapses into moral relativism were an aberration. I also hope that we can get to discussing without 'rants', and there I am in agreement with you.

Regarding calling "Vaishnavism' and 'Shaivism' as different religions, I disagree. Religions typically provide mutually exclusive paths to salvation. Ask Jew, Christian or Muslim clerics. According to their dogma, people of other religions would not be 'saved'. Is that the way 'vaishnavism' and 'shaivism' differ in your opinion?

There has been a lot of discussion whether Hinduism, Budhism etc should be called 'religions'. By terming these 'dharmas' religions, we unwittingly adopt a term which is unfairly loaded against the basics of the 'dharma'.

The flavor I get from some ISKCON and also from siddha.com website is this penchant on codifying the "I believe x but not y" type of statements which sound so alien to Hindus from India, but for western born Hindus, they sound just fine. I still can't get over an 'We belive x' type of a statement from an ISKCON preacher. He said: 'We believe that there is a planet called Vaikuntha where Krishna lives'. Converting a 'Loka' to a planet, and saying it in such cut and dry 'We believe' type of statemet makes one wonder whether they truly belong to a religion of the book or are they truly Hindu.

My point is this: I love, adore and worship Krishna. He is like a friend, a teacher, a God. But I really don't 'believe' that he lives on a planet called Vaikuntha. Sounds almost like 'Our father who rules in Heaven'. How empty and limiting such 'I believe x about Krishna' type of ststements are can be seen if one were to look for descriptions of Krishna from all the sacred literature. If one were to just peruse Gita one would know how misled a person is he who thinks Krishna lives on a 'planet'.

Is Krishna just limited to his description of the stories? It is a little known secret, but in Tantra, Krishna and Kali are closely related. BhadrakAlI and Krishna also share the same bIjamantra' of 'krIm', kAlI's bIja is 'klIm' . But in stories kali and durga are often called bhavAnI, that is wife of bhava or shiva. There is just too much of a textual record to differentiate too much between the Hindu divinities.

Same about Shiva. I have developed a great liking for Kashmir shaivism and hold it as one of the greatest philosophical and meditational systems. Although I am really a shAkta. So what am I, a vaishNava, a shaiva or a shAkta? I just prefer to call myself 'Hindu'. Calling 'VaisNavism', shaivism, shAktism etc as different religions would cut too unfairly through the structure of 'dharma'. Judaism, Christianity and Islam share some texts, but they are vastly different religions, too separated from each other. You mentioned vaishNavism and shaivism are different religions sharing same texts. But the differences between them are not as stark as between Judaism, Christianity and Islam. They can't be cut asunder into separate 'religions', At best we should call them 'sects', not religions. JMHO.

01-12-2005, 11:54 AM

QUOTEThere has been a lot of discussion whether Hinduism, Budhism etc should be called 'religions'. By terming these 'dharmas' religions, we unwittingly adopt a term which is unfairly loaded against the basics of the 'dharma'. 

Ashok, very perceptive and something i have been drumming to seemingly deaf ears for some time. Like many english and european words religion does not translate easily into our world and our thought process, because a dogmatic belief in a set ideology is alien to the way we think. Dharma is not religion just as varna is not caste. I dont want to get on a soap box now but by accepting such reductionist and sometimes misleading definitions of our way of llife we are left defending something that is not native to our worldview.

01-12-2005, 02:50 PM

Obviously most persons have been jarred by the shankaracharya arrest. And my seemingly non sympathy is not helping either.

Here is something I wrote recently explaining the Hindu understanding of events, tsunamis in this instance, but equally applicable to the kanchi arrest. The attitude is one of joyous acceptance blaming no one.

<b>Six Hindu principles, linked and overlapping, are involved here in explaining the tsunami and natural disasters:</b>

1. that nature is alive with inherent spirit beings, who play a part in evolving the physical world, and periodic readjustments are to be expected,

2. that in the ultimate analysis, in the highest macro Hindu view, not an atom moves, not a blade of grass sways, but by the will of god. He is the only doer. There is no other.

3. karma - not a single thing can happen to us if its not our karma. We were therefore born exactly to experience this tsunami, either as victims or as non-victims,

4. there is no instrinsic evil in the world - all that happens is for the ultimate good. Death is renewal. Death is birth in the antarloka.

5. loss, destitution, loneliness, fear of the unknown and the future, uncertainty - these are the very factors that instil humility, soul searching, compassion, understanding, acceptance, forbearance, sharing and giving without reward - all godly qualities, the very nature of the soul exposed, shattering the bonds that fetters the soul. These are exactly what is to be welcomed, and why we are here for.

6. Gods dont get angry - they have no emotions, and they cannot do one thing that is not born out of love.

Knowing this Hindu seers offered flowers to the rising tsunami, palms together, in reverance and thanksgiving to the towering wall of water, a linga, and seeing this too as gods blessing, .

Tamil aphorisms:
1. Oru pollapum ellai - there is not one evil (wrong) thing at all
2. Naam ariyom - we will never know (the reasons and intricacies of god and world)
3. Eppolutho mudintha kaariyam - it was done(decided)long ago,

The world and all the souls have already evolved, achieved moksha, merged with the Lord and mahapralaya has already taken place. Only now we are seeing these 'already happened events' slowly unfolding, us being the spectators and participants.

Regards.

Pathma

01-12-2005, 09:35 PM

I still dont see a conspiracy, but now there seems to be a plot to unfold events. The release of JS on bail and the arrest of VS appears ominous. I am afraid that the plan is to coerce VS to implicate JS on a plea bargain, with an admission before a magistrate and admissable in court.

I am not on anybody's side, neither Kanchi or the PP/govt/JJ. I have issues against the fat lady, the DMK/AIADMK pseudo-athiests (they are all believers) but this is not the time or thread to discuss these things.

Whatever the outcome, it does not matter. The kanchi sampradaya, and by extension the rest, has been done for. Orthodoxy will go. I am telling you honestly upfront right now - those rooting for them better revise their positions with some some honest soul searching.

You underestimate your own police force and judiciary, while other nations have great respect for them. All over the commonwealth we quote Indian judges and cases. We remember how their police solved the Rajiv Gandhi murder in days, and had them all successfully charged. Yet Indians routinely malign their own institutions.

Pathma

01-12-2005, 10:03 PM

QUOTE(Pathmarajah @ Jan 12 2005, 12:05 PM) You underestimate your own police force and judiciary, while other nations have great respect for them. All over the commonwealth we quote Indian judges and cases. We remember how their police solved the Rajiv Gandhi murder in days, and had them all successfully charged. Yet Indians routinely malign their own institutions.

Pathma 
You have a point Pathma. But this skeptisim stems from the fact that we have criminals, rapists, murders, thughs with known links with ISI sitting those very temples of democracy running those very same insititutions. Goons with connections are running brothels from jail cells or ordering kidnappings and people have issues with a seer demanding food of his choice while in prison! Jails are converted into five star health spas for our politicians visiting jails. Warrants against a person like our President Abdul Kalam or the Cheif Justice of SC have been bought for less than Rs 50k in past twelve months - just to highlight the rot in system. As you say the murders of Rajiv Gandhi were brought to justice within days but those responsible 4000 sikhs deaths are sitting in the same parliament let alone a day in court/jail 20 years since the incidence.
You'll find links to all these on this forum if you search or can google it out.

So as Andy Grover say's a bit of paranoia might not be such a bad thing. Besides, what's the point in living in a democracy if we can't speak out against these corrupt insititutions that have not delivered? We might be great compared to other nations but that's really not any measuring stick to go by as there's still a lot left to be done.

Those who have come out in support of the Indian constitution or India Justice system during the seer arrest case are seemly quite when it comes to other cases. Wonder why? One can only guess...

01-12-2005, 10:52 PM

These are side issues but important enough to be addressed right away.

Ashok, I dont think there has been a blatant abuse of power and the justice system. It clearly shows now that the system is slow, but working. I spoke on caste issues on another thread, now trashed. These kanchi events is a brahmin vs brahmin vs brahmin thing and there is no need to pull the rest of the subcontinent into this by default of non sympathy. Our hands are full with caste discrimination, poverty and now this tsunami thang. <!--emo& Smile

--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' />

The SC has not agreed anything, except that bail cannot be denied, which is the right thing to do. Nothing more to read into this.

I am on nobody's side on this issue, but this itself is causing great consternation. Why dont you see the kanchi sampradaya as just another Hindu sampradaya, one of hundreds, and whether it lives or not does not make the big Hindu picture change! I give it a 0.04% influence on Hinduism, just no more importance than any one of those beachside Hindu temples washed away by the tsunami. Even Adi Shankara in just a grain of sand on a long beach of a galaxy of Hindu saints and sages. Why dont you see this view?

QUOTERegarding calling "Vaishnavism' and 'Shaivism' as different religions, I disagree.Â Religions typically provide mutually exclusive paths to salvation.Â Ask Jew, Christian or Muslim clerics.Â According to their dogma, people of other religions would not be 'saved'.Â Is that the way 'vaishnavism' and 'shaivism' differ in your opinion?

Not at all. We Hindus do not believe in exclusivism. This is semitic thinking. This answers your question. By describing saivism and vaishnavism as 'religions', we emphasise the completeness and wholesomeness of both. By describing them as 'sects', we emphasize the relatedness. Both descriptions are valid and necessary, not one more important than the other.

QUOTEThere has been a lot of discussion whether Hinduism, Budhism etc should be called 'religions'.Â By terming these 'dharmas' religions, we unwittingly adopt a term which is unfairly loaded against the basics of the 'dharma'.

I dont see a problem at all. Hinduism is both a religion as well as an overarching dharma too. But I do not see a conflict. I dont see how its limiting or shortchanging us. Since we speak to the non Indian world, we use the terms that best suit satisfactory explanation.

Regarding ISKCON, they are believers of the book, and as they quite readily say, they are not Hindus. It is we who find it difficult to stomach that. Why dont we just accept their belief system instead of trying to categorise them. Prabhupada knew what he was doing and he does not need counsel from us.

Saivism is quite different in this regard; it has less to do with beliefs and more with conduct or practices. If you notice in siddha.com.my , more than half the page is devoted to 'Hindu Practices'.

Still beliefs are important: there is no concept of avatar in saivism, which conceptually puts it far away from vaishnavism and closer to buddhism, and puts vaishnavism closer to the semitic religions, with son of god and prophets. Not starting an issue here but just to stress that all these things have been thoroughly thought out. At this point I better explain that me and my family have had a real experience with Lord Hanuman, who, under directions from Lord Ganapati, personally saved us from serious predicaments. He is a real being. So the sectarian relationships are real and close, far more than conceptualists would admit. And by the way, he is not a monkey. He is a Lord.

QUOTEI have developed a great liking for Kashmir shaivism and hold it as one of the greatest philosophical and meditational systems.Â Although I am really a shAkta.

Siddha.com.my serves as an entry portal to saivism for non-Indians. The Iskcon and Bochasanwasi websites serves as an entry portal for vaishnavism. If you are a Sakta, why dont you start one for Saktism, Ashok. Make it mirror mine.

Regards.

Pathma

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