<!--QuoteBegin-Bodhi+Dec 10 2007, 02:42 AM-->QUOTE(Bodhi @ Dec 10 2007, 02:42 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->Also those who have mentioned Bhojpuri and Awadhi (vs Hindi) would do well to ask Mulayam Singh why Urdu is declared as the second language of Uttar Pradesh and not either Bhojpuri, Awadhi, Bundelkhandi or Braj - each of which has a larger following than Urdu in the state?Â
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I don't have a hotline to Mulayam-ji ... but, even if I did, I doubt that this question will make my top 10 list ...
in any case, language and literature are part of the culture of any civilized society ... how, for example, does the body of Bhojpuri Poetry (of which you may be a Master) compare with that of Urdu Poetry? ... how many times have you heard a Bundelkhandi couplet quoted? ...
an anecdote to illustrate my point ... I have been to Bhojpuri Kavi Sammaelans ... they used to be a riot, with most poets taking recourse in Hasya Ras ... one time, a Mr. Chand attempted self-aggrandization and started off with this line:
<i>Pehlae kae Kavi Bhushan rahae, ab kae hain Shri Chand</i>
another poet, not to waste an opportunity, quipped in:
<i>oo to paawae laksh dwaya, tu kaa paayo lu*d?</i>
back to topic ... IMO, bashing Pakis and bashing Urdu are two different things ... much like bashing UK versus bashing English ... English is now part of Indian culture, as is Urdu ...
Culture is not static ... it is certainly not stuck in some mode prior to 786 AD ... not all ancient cultural values are appropriate in today's world ... exclusively clinging on to them is weakness of spirit ...
In the words of National Poet Dinkar:
<i>Lo ateet sae utnaa hi jitnaa poshak hai
Jeern-sheern ka moh mrityu ka dyotak hai
</i>
Cheers.
<b>Stick to topic, this thread is dedicated to sing songs for Pakistan and its long culture, heritage and contribution to world</b>
Alok Niranjan,
Long time no see, you were not there last week Chai-pani on "Understanding Pakistan" , hope to see you for "Geo Politics" Chai-pani after two months.
<!--QuoteBegin-Mudy+Dec 10 2007, 12:11 PM-->QUOTE(Mudy @ Dec 10 2007, 12:11 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->Alok Niranjan,
Long time no see, you were not there last week Chai-pani on "Understanding Pakistan" , hope to see you for "Geo Politics" Chai-pani after two months.
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Hi Mudy,
Yes, I hope to make it to one of the meetings ... perhaps, you all could come my way ... I promise good chai and biskoot also ... <!--emo&--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
12-11-2007, 01:56 AM (This post was last modified: 12-11-2007, 02:00 AM by Bodhi.)
promises to be a good discussion.
1. <!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->how, for example, does the body of Bhojpuri Poetry (of which you may be a Master) compare with that of Urdu Poetry? ... how many times have you heard a Bundelkhandi couplet quoted? ...
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Depends upon what company you keep. Naresh Ji and Mudy Ji in a jovial mood have been saying this differently - language of Muzra and Kotha they said - but let me say this with a little more serious tone.
Which language you will use will determine what will be the content, to a large extent. Urdu has been for a long time a language which is used for brand "shayari", and will carry romantic shringar rasa. While Urdu does also have other Rasa-s and sanskaras, but it can not be denied that Shringaar rasa - both samyog and viyog moods is what dominates Urdu for ages, and in a popular content.
Now let us turn to native languages- Braja, Awadhi etc. Couplet, or original term of it, 'dohaa', is primarily a heritage of native braja-bhasha and awadhi-bhasha. Please remember Rahim Das Ji, and his awesome collection of doha-s in braja and awadhi. Those were original and immortal couplets which are quoted many many more times than any number of ash-aar of farsi-nishtha-urdu. Even today rahimdas-ji's neeti-dohas are very common. Much more succesful and long lasting impression than any Urdu "couplets".
Since you seem familiar, let me just quote the first National Poet, predecessor of Shri Dinakar Ji - Sri Maithili Sharan Gupta, on what he says is the purpose of poetry in his view-point:
kyon aaj ramcharitmanas sab kaheen sammanya hai?
satkaavya-yug usame param aadarsha kaa praadhanya hai.
keval manoranjan na kavita-karma hona chahiye?
usame uchit upadesh ka bhee marma hona chahiye
{Why is Ramcharitmanas everywhere so respected?
because it carries the era of 'Sat'-poetry in it, and supreme are ideals in it,
only entertainment - should that be the poetry's duty?
no! it must also be propogator of balanced and right narrative}
Just like RCM of Awadhi, same thing can be said about Bhojpuri, Maithili and others. I hope you have enjoyed the immortat poetry of Vidyapati, or Bihari? But I doubt, because if someone has seriousely enjoyed Vidyapati/Bihari/Bhushan, would not have jumped to compare Braja/Awadhi/Bhojpuri with Urdu.
A language is complete if it has balance. If it has all types of Rasa-s and Alankara-s with enough content. Urdu is very ekangi language. Howmuch Shayari of Urdu have you come across with Vaatsalya rasa in it heh? Veer-rasa? Jugupsaa rasa? Bhaya? Urdu as a poetry medium was, is, and allah-willing shall be the farsi-influenced-shringara-rasa language.
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2. The very obscene couplet you posted - it is certainly not Bhojpuri- not one word in it.
========
3. I wish you would have followed the background of where Urdu discussion came in. It came in several days (or weeks) back, that in Pakistan Urdu is fast replacing Panjabi (and other real native languages). Just like Urdu has replaced Kashmiri in Kashmir. Just like they will attempt to replace Kannda with Urdu. A Muslim-faith does not have to replace the culture, right? But you see facts are showing what is happening in the entire sub-continent. From Sindh to Bangal-Assam, and from Kashmir to Tamil Nadu. One Tamizh friend was telling me the other day, how Tamizh muslims are now breaking both the legs of that language to accommodate Urdu in it - as a symbol of pan-Hinddostani-Islamiyat!
Getting what is the problem? I hope you do. Again, Let me once again quote from Shri M.S.Gupta Ji, on what he says about ancestral tradition -
nij-poorvajan ke sadguNo kaa garva jo rakhatee nahin
vaha jaati jeevit jaatiyon me, rah nahin sakati kahin
pad-chinha unake yatna-poorvak khoj lena chahiye
nij poorva-gaurav deep ko bujhane na dena chahiye
{who take no pride on qualities of ones ancestors,
those civilizations will never be able to survive as living races
therefore, their (ancestors) foot-steps must be effortfully traced
and the lamp of ones glory of yore must never ever be extinguished}
Problem is not Urdu itself (or even English). They are fine if they can coexist with countless languages of our traditions. The problem is, they (not their fault) have now become a symbol of a new idea - that is a contempt for the tradition. Renounce the faith of ancestors - renounce their language and culture too! That idea. What would otherwise explain why Pakistanis will slowly renounce Panjabi Sindhi for Urdu? Even the trends suggest that Urdu finds home in Bangladesh now! What an irony that country was craeted on language issue at the forefront.
See the problem? So the problem really is the contempt which you displayed in your first post where you quoted your respected grandmother saying something about Hindi.
And in a sense, that contempt for rest of the native Indian languages - is an original sanskaar of Urdu language. It was very much conceived in that hate for and aggression against the languages of idolators. Again its upto an individual howmuch one wants to learn from History.
For more if one is interested, "Progress of Indic Languages" under culture thread will be better - so as to not obstruct true Pakistan discussion on this thread.
12-11-2007, 03:50 AM (This post was last modified: 12-11-2007, 03:52 AM by Bharatvarsh.)
Ravish you started the blank shots, but u can't seem to take it when I talked back.
You never provided any proof for any of your accusations.
dhimmi losers like you are so braindead that you think opposing Islam means wanting to genocide Muslims, go read some books about the difference between Islam as an ideology and Muslims as a community.
Cowards like you are the prime reason why Taslima has to hide from your golden state of West Bengal ruled by your ideologically braindead brothers.
Anyway don't comeback with some stupid reply unless you can substantiate your accusations.
Here is good news from Islamic state of Pakistan for those who love Pakistan more then India
Happy Paki, good for India <!--emo&--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo--> <b>'Pak Muslims addicted to liquor more than others'</b><!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Islamabad, December 10: Pakistan's Muslims, including women and adolescents, are more prone to becoming addicted to liquor than members of other communities, says a new study.
Through data collected over five years, Waseem Haider, a surgeon at the Medico-Legal Punjab office in Lahore, found that addiction to alcohol is far higher among Muslim men and women in urban areas than members of the Christian, Hindu and other minority communities.
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They are true follower of Islam.
Now are they going to get 72 houris or it will be 720 houris.
India should hurry up and finish the hydro projects we have going on the Indus river system. With that complete, the fear of water shortage will only be greater than the paranoia of flooded farmland.
Mudy has indicated this is off-topic, so I will not go into lengthy rebuttals ... however, in response to my query about a couplet in Bundelkhandi, your response was to take refuge in Rahim Khankhana ... nice ...
I am not interested in beating this to death ... I responded to Urdu users being called "morons and clueless" ... nothing that you have typed justifies that ... I doubt that reading 59 back-pages of this thread will do so either ...
quoting you in reverse order:
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->See the problem? So the problem really is the contempt which you displayed in your first post where you quoted your respected grandmother saying something about Hindi.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
there was no contempt ... instead it was irony ... btw, isn't it ironic that "irony" does not have a Ras associated with it? ...
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Problem is not Urdu itself (or even English). They are fine if they can coexist with countless languages of our traditions. The problem is, they (not their fault) have now become a symbol of a new idea - that is a contempt for the tradition. Renounce the faith of ancestors - renounce their language and culture too! That idea. What would otherwise explain why Pakistanis will slowly renounce Panjabi Sindhi for Urdu? Even the trends suggest that Urdu finds home in Bangladesh now! What an irony that country was craeted on language issue at the forefront.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
here you see irony where none exists!
symbols and/or new ideas are never a problem ... why should it matter to you who renounces what? ... as they say, are you a thekedaar of others' minds?
there is a general issue of folks clinging to some ideas and feeling despondent when they see that the popularity of those ideas is eroding ...
the correct response is to make your set of ideas more popular, not whine about the choices others are making ... if not, then live and let be ... at the very top of the idea of liberty is the freedom to choose among ideas ...
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->I am not interested in beating this to death ... I responded to Urdu users being called "morons and clueless" ... nothing that you have typed justifies that ... I doubt that reading 59 back-pages of this thread will do so either ...
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Alok Niranjan,
Urdu is a language of invaders who killed millions, it represent oppression whether through Dera (invader camps) or Kotha (woman/rape). Why Muslims or Pakistan are pushing this on its citizens because itâs a sign of victory over Indic Civilization.
So some are proud on this, but not I and millions like me are not. Its a free world, if you want to share your love for Urdu, there are lot of proud Paki sites and IMC sites who share your views, you can share glory with them.
On streets people speak with street language and they do same at home, that is their culture, for some may be offensive, like Urdu is offensive to me.
Today some groups were forced to cancel Aurangzeb B'day in Maharastra, it was offensive to some but he is hero in eyes of Pakistan, IMC and you can also cut cake on his glory, no one is stopping you, but for me it is offensive and reminds me of barbaric person and tyranny he imposed on millions of Hindu.
India is a only country where worst oppressor of history had city and roads named on him in Capital of country. Can you think or imagine Adolf Hitler road in Israel or even in USA?
I see that the Taliban analogy was not too far fetched ...
what other aspects of "invader culture" are you ready to Ban? ... what about cuisine? ... no Murgh Mussallam, I presume? ... totally haraam? ...
this sort of viewpoint is so childish that commenting on it is useless ...
Peace Be Upon You and your forum ... TaliHindoo is a nasty concept ... I will revert to lurk mode ...
btw, do you have a "certificate" that you are *not* an "invader" ... got your geneology figured out around 5000 BC? ...
actually, why only 5000 BC? ... some monkies from 1,000,000 BC would consider you an invader, no?
this business of staking out a point in history, claiming that as Time=0, declaring everything before it as Haraam and everything after as Halaal is a Packee specialty ...
<b>Pakistan test-fires medium-range missile</b><!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->ISLAMABAD, Pakistan - Pakistan's military said Tuesday it had successfully test-fired a medium-range cruise missile capable of delivering nuclear warheads.
The launch of a new version of the Hatf-VII or Babur missile, which has a range of 435 miles, was "part of a continuous process of validating the design parameters set for this weapon system," an army statement said.
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12-11-2007, 02:53 PM (This post was last modified: 12-11-2007, 02:56 PM by Bodhi.)
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->IMO, bashing Pakis and bashing Urdu are two different things ...
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But the concept behind Pakistan and Urdu is precisely the same: Islamiyat of Hindustan. Both are conceived and born with the same hatred for everything that is Hindu, and notion that Islam can not live with anything that is native Hindu. Love for all that is daar-ul-islam, Arabia, Turk and Faras, and contempt for all that is daar-ul-harb.
As you are proud of "Urdu Heritage", you should know how Urdu poets have been subtly doing their Kaafir-bashing. Analyze the most famous Gazals that are full of Kafir-bashing. Remember a very famous Gazal of Akbar Allahabadi, put to voice by Gulam Ali - 'Hangama Kyo Hai Burpa, Thodi Si Jo Pee Lee Hai'. Next time when you hear that gazal, pause to think about this line: "buut humko kahe Kaafir, allah ki marzi hai". (By the way Akbar Allahabadi was a very creative poet of 30s-40s, who provided roji roti for so many gazal singers of pakistan for the next 50 years, and after his name a new Urdu University has been inaugurated by your mananiya Mulayam-Ji at Prayag.) It is only after the take over of Urdy poetry by Hindu poets that you see some change.
Nobody is asking for a ban on Urdu Language as you seem to have observed. But what is painful is to see Urdu being promoted right here in your own land <b>at the cost of your very own languages</b>, and the blind dhimmi being proud of Urdu even more than he is proud of his own languages not even knowing their worth.
What was all that talk about freedom to choose and so on, I did not get how that was connected to this. Was somebody suggesting Urdu be legally or otherwise banned or what? Everybody has a right to live as they want, be proud of whatever they are proud of including junk, and freely express their thoughts on it as they want to. All in someone's hands is to educate them on what really they are proud of and what really they have not learnt and missed and therefore not had an opportunity to appreciate as an alternative.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--> btw, isn't it ironic that "irony" does not have a Ras associated with it? ...
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To update your information, "Irony" is an Alankara (not Rasa), and a very celebrated one at that in the Hindi poetry both traditional and modern. It is called "Virodhabhas Alankar" in Hindi. Poets Tulasidas Ji and Surdas ji were masters of this Alankar. Many modern poets like Jayshankar Prasad and Suryakant Tripathi Nirala have used this too. In Sanskrit, Kavikulguru Kalidas was a true master of "Irony"-alankar.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--><b>Pak may turn its jehadis on India </b>
PTI | Chennai
Posted online: December 12, 2007
Terming the present political situation in Pakistan as "volatile", a senior army officer on Wednesday said that Islamabad may turn its jehadis on India to divert attention from its internal crisis.
"While jehadis in Pakistan are now fighting the army in Balochistan, Swat and North Western Frontier Province, the same may be brainwashed and made to infiltrate in India," Lt Gen Noble Thamburaj, General Officer Commanding-in-Chief, Southern Command, said.
This could be a tactic by Pakistan to "divert attention from its internal crisis," he said.
"India should be careful at this point as infiltrators may use the sea route through the Rann of Kutch or Maharashtra to infiltrate into India," Thamburaj said.
Responding to a query on Pakistan's latest test of Babar missile (Hatf VII), which is capable of carrying nuclear warhead, the Commanding-in-Chief said "Pakistan can fire a missile with a nuclear warhead at the slightest of provocations and therefore the US is constantly monitoring the country."
On the steps initiated by India to counter the growing threat from Pakistan's weapon arsenal, General Thamburaj said India was now focussing on strategic weapons to its existing weapons "with a lot of Research and Development happening in this regard," and recalled the recent successful testing of India's missile interceptor.
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Nothing new.
Naresji,
Thanks,
What our chief is saying is right but our civilian who are in comatose state will never react till they are getting hafta from Paki. they only listen to candlekisser at Wagha
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->KARACHI - <b>The foreign exchange reserves of Pakistan have wiped out by $ 750 million in last five weeks. By December 8, the foreign exchange reserves squeezed to $ 15.622 billion from $ 16.372b on November 2, 2007.</b><!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->KARACH : <b>The total liquid foreign reserves held by the country plunged by $142 million during the week ending on December 8 (Saturday).
The foreign exchange reserves declined to $15.622 billion on December 8 from $15.764 billion on December 1.</b><!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
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