Post 4/ - Trishiras vs Orochi - part 2
- The greatest difference concerns Orochi's body being like the local Japanese environment of the region, including the hills, valleys and plants/trees there. Repeating the translation of the Nihongi found on wacky:
So Orochi - whose name's Japanese etymology wacky said was a "God/spirit" with <presumably something about its> "tail" - is, if anything, the embodiment of the local Hii River and surrounding region (the region within flooding distance of the river?). The 8 tails and 8 heads point to that riverine geography. Trishiras three heads don't really compare therefore: the multi-headedness of the two is of a very different nature, not just number.
Susanowo, in lopping off the multiple heads of Orochi (the hills?) and cutting its tails (valleys? or its riverlets) and the rest of its body into pieces, may have tamed the region - perhaps thereby re-adjusting the geography a bit - tamed it sufficiently, [color="#0000FF"]for the purpose of better rice cultivation[/color] (and having as consequence, better rice wine/sake generation).
* A couple of reasons for this interpretation (am not denying the reality of Susano'o-Sama and his Wife and Family):
The fact that he lopped the heads (tributaries, hills etc?) and tails (valleys, river ends, etc?) and cut the body in pieces (re-organising it) and the fact that his wife is called Rice-Field princess and the fact that they became fruitful (had babies thereafter - more rice fields?) seems to imply: he adjusted river flow in the valley (or tamed or even evened out the area better) for rice cultivation.
[Cutting the entire body of the Orochi into pieces including luring the 8 heads to the 8 gates <-> maybe this refers to diverting/re-distributing the river so that it supplied water to a number of rice fields? At the end of each gate the Orochi head that had been lured there found rice-wine <-> maybe this means diverting each of the 8 main river outlets to a functioning/viable rice field?]
In other famous Japanese religio-narratives too: e.g. in one ancient Japanese narrative [as relayed in the excellent very heathen children's film Tatsu-no-ko-Taro], a heroic boy - blessed by Kami Tengu-Sama with divine sake giving him the strength of 100 men - together with his dragon mother break a large boulder to release the water of the dragon's lake to flood a valley(s) below so that these can become viable rice-fields. That entire narrative was very *explicitly* about the need for rice cultivation to save the people in the surrounding area from being constantly underfed and miserable. To achieve this, it was necessary to get the water that was lodged in the mountainous lake/river to flow down to the valleys below. This - the need for the proper geography for rice cultivation - may be a common point between the two narratives (of Orochi and the one in Tatsunoko Taro).
In that case, not just one but *both* narratives involved re-adjusting the landscape for rice cultivation. Susano-wo being *Heavenly* Kami of Summer Storms and a Watery God first re-adjusting the landscape for better rice cultivation and then teaming up with his Wife the Rice Field Princess who was an *Earthly* kami, could be the happy union of ideal weather for rice cultivation on earth in that area of Japan. Especially since it says that Susano-wo Sama decided to *settle* in this region - which he found pleasant - with his Wife and decided to have his sacred family there: he made these improved conditions for rice cultivation permanent. He made the land of the region fruitful by joining with the Princess of Rice Fields, his wife - having tamed the existing geography (Orochi) which had been perhaps more hostile to rice cultivation. The fact that Rice Field Princess' life was threatened could then have the additional meaning that Rice cultivation in the rice fields there was itself threatend in that area by the then unyielding geography. This explanation fits the points *very* well while still not doing anything in the least to negate how Susano-wo Kamisama really did settle there with his Wife and had Children: in Japan everything has Gods (or at least a spirit) presiding over them or residing in them. And the region brews lots of sake, which surely means it must have (had) lots of rice fields since Susanowo overcame Orochi and made it his dwelling.
[Note, Japanese Kamis are described as shaping the islands of Japan and shaping life there. So this scene of Susanowo's earthly sojourn in helping Japanese rice farming fits in that larger ancient Shinto view of the Kami shaping all Japanese cosmology and particularly Japan, its nature and taking an active part in the life of earthly creatures. Sake and poetry and sumo weren't the only things that the Kamis taught the Japanese.
The little I've read on Korean native religion's Gods also describes the Korean Gods as shaping their natural world - down to even the stepping stones of land bridges (a la some giants of Wales were associated with arranging giant stones in Wales. <- Pre-emptively: No, PIE didn't "inspire" the Koreans in this either. All over the world heathens have recognised in nature the signs of the Gods shaping geography.)]
Susanowo was supposed to have been banished from the heavens to earth. But Goddess Amaterasu is his sister, and she is the ancestor of all Japanese (also literally), being the Sun. "Banished" implies enforced exile. Essentially, this could simply read that the Gods of Shinto heavenly realm sent Susano-wo to earth to reside permanently there, where he may use his powers to the benefit of the Japanese people (Amaterasu's descendants). He found a place where he was most needed and made it his home. His romantic poetry concerning His Wife as well as the region He chose to make His Earthly Abode speaks of how he wishes to protect these and the children they have here. "High walls from massively rising clouds" to protect all this, said the translation of his poem. Then with his permanent residence/enshrinement in Yaegaki, he has not only made the land fruitful - for the population to have nourishment - but also promises fruitfulness to the population, by promoting marriage unions among the Japanese and blessing them with subsequent babies (he provided "child-bearing safety" too as per the posted translation of his poem). [Gods who promote agricultural success often promote reproductive success.] It was therefore a great day when the heavenly Kamis sent him to permanently reside on Earth. To demonstrate that there was no real ill-will between him and his Sister/Heaven, he gifted the sacred divine sword he found in the Orochi's tail back to Amaterasu (whence it came down to Japanese rulers).
[Vritra is ultimately not a better comparison to Orochi either: since the battle was for the need of rain from drought, not to suppress flood from a local river - even though even "flood" is not mentioned in the summaries about Susanowo - nor to make the geography more compliant for better rice cultivation. Erlang Shen's case is about floods and taming the river geography/irrigation and closer to Susanowo in that respect.]
Meanwhile, with such an additional view on Susanowo vs Orochi, Trishiras' case is even further from bearing any resemblance to Orochi's. Kami Susanowo shows his (and his Wife's) benevolence in helping Japanese people in farming rice and have generated not just the necessities to nourish them with (rice) but generate the joy that results from this (sake, another divine gift of the Kami, which deepens the communion between the Japanese heathens and their Gods).
Together, the God and his wife are life-sustaining and life-promoting Gods of the Japanese countryside, giving the Japanese all they wanted: fruitful land, happy unions and progeny, and sake.
So regardless of PIE-ists' views on whether Indra vs Vritra concerns the case of melting ice on (artic? central asian?) mountains or whatever, that and the Trishiras narratives have no bearing on Susanowo. Generally too, in the E Asian case the Longs - and the dragons/serpents of many other indigenous peoples of E-Asia, Africa, Americas and Oceania - tend to be indigenously related back to rain, storms, floods, drought and often found in earthly waters.
So PIE-ists can leave all of them happily out of PIE speculations, especially since many are older populations with usually older and even independent traditions regarding magical, giant, weather-influencing, water-related serpent-like beings. More examples about such "magical" weather and/or land-water controlling dragons and giant serpents - in Oceania and Americas - will follow after the next post. The following one is about the case that PIE-ism refers to for the PIE "chaoskampf" trope among Hittites.
- The greatest difference concerns Orochi's body being like the local Japanese environment of the region, including the hills, valleys and plants/trees there. Repeating the translation of the Nihongi found on wacky:
Quote:"[Orochi] had an eight-forked head and an eight-forked tail; its eyes were red, like the winter-cherry; and on its back firs and cypresses were growing. As it crawled it extended over a space of eight hills and eight valleys." These botanical names used to describe this Orochi are akahagachi or hoozuki ("winter cherry or Japanese lantern, Physalis alkekengi"), hikage ("club moss, Lycopodiopsida), hinoki ("Japanese cypress, Chamaecyparis obtusa), and sugi ("Japanese cedar, Cryptomeria").[Watery Serpents and other sea creatures bearing entire regions or islands or lands is a common occurrence in the narratives of different religio-cultures, btw.]
So Orochi - whose name's Japanese etymology wacky said was a "God/spirit" with <presumably something about its> "tail" - is, if anything, the embodiment of the local Hii River and surrounding region (the region within flooding distance of the river?). The 8 tails and 8 heads point to that riverine geography. Trishiras three heads don't really compare therefore: the multi-headedness of the two is of a very different nature, not just number.
Susanowo, in lopping off the multiple heads of Orochi (the hills?) and cutting its tails (valleys? or its riverlets) and the rest of its body into pieces, may have tamed the region - perhaps thereby re-adjusting the geography a bit - tamed it sufficiently, [color="#0000FF"]for the purpose of better rice cultivation[/color] (and having as consequence, better rice wine/sake generation).
* A couple of reasons for this interpretation (am not denying the reality of Susano'o-Sama and his Wife and Family):
The fact that he lopped the heads (tributaries, hills etc?) and tails (valleys, river ends, etc?) and cut the body in pieces (re-organising it) and the fact that his wife is called Rice-Field princess and the fact that they became fruitful (had babies thereafter - more rice fields?) seems to imply: he adjusted river flow in the valley (or tamed or even evened out the area better) for rice cultivation.
[Cutting the entire body of the Orochi into pieces including luring the 8 heads to the 8 gates <-> maybe this refers to diverting/re-distributing the river so that it supplied water to a number of rice fields? At the end of each gate the Orochi head that had been lured there found rice-wine <-> maybe this means diverting each of the 8 main river outlets to a functioning/viable rice field?]
In other famous Japanese religio-narratives too: e.g. in one ancient Japanese narrative [as relayed in the excellent very heathen children's film Tatsu-no-ko-Taro], a heroic boy - blessed by Kami Tengu-Sama with divine sake giving him the strength of 100 men - together with his dragon mother break a large boulder to release the water of the dragon's lake to flood a valley(s) below so that these can become viable rice-fields. That entire narrative was very *explicitly* about the need for rice cultivation to save the people in the surrounding area from being constantly underfed and miserable. To achieve this, it was necessary to get the water that was lodged in the mountainous lake/river to flow down to the valleys below. This - the need for the proper geography for rice cultivation - may be a common point between the two narratives (of Orochi and the one in Tatsunoko Taro).
In that case, not just one but *both* narratives involved re-adjusting the landscape for rice cultivation. Susano-wo being *Heavenly* Kami of Summer Storms and a Watery God first re-adjusting the landscape for better rice cultivation and then teaming up with his Wife the Rice Field Princess who was an *Earthly* kami, could be the happy union of ideal weather for rice cultivation on earth in that area of Japan. Especially since it says that Susano-wo Sama decided to *settle* in this region - which he found pleasant - with his Wife and decided to have his sacred family there: he made these improved conditions for rice cultivation permanent. He made the land of the region fruitful by joining with the Princess of Rice Fields, his wife - having tamed the existing geography (Orochi) which had been perhaps more hostile to rice cultivation. The fact that Rice Field Princess' life was threatened could then have the additional meaning that Rice cultivation in the rice fields there was itself threatend in that area by the then unyielding geography. This explanation fits the points *very* well while still not doing anything in the least to negate how Susano-wo Kamisama really did settle there with his Wife and had Children: in Japan everything has Gods (or at least a spirit) presiding over them or residing in them. And the region brews lots of sake, which surely means it must have (had) lots of rice fields since Susanowo overcame Orochi and made it his dwelling.
[Note, Japanese Kamis are described as shaping the islands of Japan and shaping life there. So this scene of Susanowo's earthly sojourn in helping Japanese rice farming fits in that larger ancient Shinto view of the Kami shaping all Japanese cosmology and particularly Japan, its nature and taking an active part in the life of earthly creatures. Sake and poetry and sumo weren't the only things that the Kamis taught the Japanese.
The little I've read on Korean native religion's Gods also describes the Korean Gods as shaping their natural world - down to even the stepping stones of land bridges (a la some giants of Wales were associated with arranging giant stones in Wales. <- Pre-emptively: No, PIE didn't "inspire" the Koreans in this either. All over the world heathens have recognised in nature the signs of the Gods shaping geography.)]
Susanowo was supposed to have been banished from the heavens to earth. But Goddess Amaterasu is his sister, and she is the ancestor of all Japanese (also literally), being the Sun. "Banished" implies enforced exile. Essentially, this could simply read that the Gods of Shinto heavenly realm sent Susano-wo to earth to reside permanently there, where he may use his powers to the benefit of the Japanese people (Amaterasu's descendants). He found a place where he was most needed and made it his home. His romantic poetry concerning His Wife as well as the region He chose to make His Earthly Abode speaks of how he wishes to protect these and the children they have here. "High walls from massively rising clouds" to protect all this, said the translation of his poem. Then with his permanent residence/enshrinement in Yaegaki, he has not only made the land fruitful - for the population to have nourishment - but also promises fruitfulness to the population, by promoting marriage unions among the Japanese and blessing them with subsequent babies (he provided "child-bearing safety" too as per the posted translation of his poem). [Gods who promote agricultural success often promote reproductive success.] It was therefore a great day when the heavenly Kamis sent him to permanently reside on Earth. To demonstrate that there was no real ill-will between him and his Sister/Heaven, he gifted the sacred divine sword he found in the Orochi's tail back to Amaterasu (whence it came down to Japanese rulers).
[Vritra is ultimately not a better comparison to Orochi either: since the battle was for the need of rain from drought, not to suppress flood from a local river - even though even "flood" is not mentioned in the summaries about Susanowo - nor to make the geography more compliant for better rice cultivation. Erlang Shen's case is about floods and taming the river geography/irrigation and closer to Susanowo in that respect.]
Meanwhile, with such an additional view on Susanowo vs Orochi, Trishiras' case is even further from bearing any resemblance to Orochi's. Kami Susanowo shows his (and his Wife's) benevolence in helping Japanese people in farming rice and have generated not just the necessities to nourish them with (rice) but generate the joy that results from this (sake, another divine gift of the Kami, which deepens the communion between the Japanese heathens and their Gods).
Together, the God and his wife are life-sustaining and life-promoting Gods of the Japanese countryside, giving the Japanese all they wanted: fruitful land, happy unions and progeny, and sake.
So regardless of PIE-ists' views on whether Indra vs Vritra concerns the case of melting ice on (artic? central asian?) mountains or whatever, that and the Trishiras narratives have no bearing on Susanowo. Generally too, in the E Asian case the Longs - and the dragons/serpents of many other indigenous peoples of E-Asia, Africa, Americas and Oceania - tend to be indigenously related back to rain, storms, floods, drought and often found in earthly waters.
So PIE-ists can leave all of them happily out of PIE speculations, especially since many are older populations with usually older and even independent traditions regarding magical, giant, weather-influencing, water-related serpent-like beings. More examples about such "magical" weather and/or land-water controlling dragons and giant serpents - in Oceania and Americas - will follow after the next post. The following one is about the case that PIE-ism refers to for the PIE "chaoskampf" trope among Hittites.