01-25-2005, 11:39 PM
<!--QuoteBegin-Sunder+Jan 26 2005, 02:56 AM-->QUOTE(Sunder @ Jan 26 2005, 02:56 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin--> ]Now, the Gunas (as described above), or the three Gunas (Satva, Rajas, Thamas) can only linger on to a 'substance'. If the Very same Brahman is Saguna, and Nirguna, then it contradicts the nature of Brahman's uniformity. What portion of it is saguna, and what portion is nirguna?
Also, the word 'GUNA-ATHEETHA' becomes meaningless if Brahman is not fully devoid of Gunas.
PS: I have an objection to the word, 'Brahman is Saguna and nirguna at the same time'. For, Brahman is beyond Time and causation, there cannot be a concept of SAME, or TIME. This is known from meditating on it. <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sundarji,
What you have written is the classic Kevala Advaita philosophical
position. Ramakrishna Advaita which I follow differs from the classic
Advaita position. Ramakrishna Advaita says that there is a step further than
a Jnani which it calls Vijnani. The state of Vijnana is described in Gita 7.2
:Jnanam teham SAVIJNANAM idam vaksyamy asesatah
yaj jnatva neha bhuyonyaj jnatavyam avasisyate
(I shall now declare to you in fullness that knowledge (Jnana) along with
Special Knowledge (Vijnana: its higher development), by means of which there
will remain nothing more for you to understand. (Gita 7.2))
Kevala Advaita philosophical position is from the standpoint of a Jnani.
That is not, however, the last word at least according to Ramakrishna Advaita.
The last and highest word is from the point of view of the Vijnani as given in
Gita 7.2.
Ramakrishna Advaita does accept that Brahman is beyond vidya and avidya,
knowledge and ignorance. It is beyond maya, the illusion of duality. What
Brahman is cannot be described. All things in the world - the Vedas, the
Puranas, the Tantras, the six systems of philosophy - have been defiled, like
food that has been touched by the tongue. Only one thing has not been defiled
in this way, and that is Brahman. No one has ever been able to say what
Brahman is. Brahman is beyond word and thought. It is said in the Vedas that
Brahman is of the nature of Bliss. It is Satchidananda. In Samadhi one attains
the knowledge of Brahman - one realizes Brahman. In that state reasoning stops
altogether, and man becomes mute. He has no power to describe the nature of
Brahman. Brahman alone is real and the world is illusory - is philosophical
reasoning. This is an extremely difficult path. To one who follows it even the
divine play in the world becomes like a dream and appears unreal; his 'I' also
vanishes.
The jnani gives up his identification with worldly things,
discriminating, 'Not this, not this!' Only then can he realize Brahman. It is
like leaving the roof of a house by leaving the steps behind, one by one. But
the Vijnani, who is more intimately acquainted with Brahman, realizes something
more. He realizes that the steps are made of the same materials as the roof:
bricks, lime, and the brick-dust. That which is realized intuitively as
Brahman through the eliminating process of 'Not this, not this' is then found
to have become the universe and all its living beings. The Vijnani sees that
the Reality which is nirguna, without attributes, is also saguna with
attributes.
A man can not live on the roof a long time. He comes down again. Those
who realize Brahman in samadhi comes down also and find that it is Brahman
that has become the universe and its living beings. In the musical scale there
are the notes sa, re, ga, ma, pa, dha, and ni; but one cannot keep one's
voice on 'ni' a long time. The ego does not vanish altogether. The man coming
down from samadhi perceives that it is Brahman that has become the ego, the
universe, and all living beings. That is known as Vijnana.
The vijnani sees that Brahman is immovable and actionless like Mount
Sumeru. This universe consists of three gunas - sattva, rajas, and tamas. They
are in Brahman. But Brahman is unattached. (Gunatita does NOT mean that the
Gunas are not in Brahman. It means that Gunas do not affect Brahman.) The
Vijnani further sees that what is Brahman is the Bhagavan, the Personal God.
He who is beyond the three gunas is the Bhagavan with His six supernatural
powers. Living beings, the universe, mind, intelligence, love, renunciation,
knowledge - all these are the manifestations of His power. Bhagavan or Saguna Brahman
can not be sublated since Bhagavan is also Brahman. A Jnani thinks Saguna Brahman
is sublated because a Jnani has not yet reached the final step, i.e. the position of a Vijnani.
Why does Brahman appear as Bhagavan? Brahman alone is real and the
world is illusory - that is reasoning - is a very difficult path. To one who
follows it even the divine play in the world becomes like a dream and appears
unreal; his 'I' also vanishes. The followers of this path do not accept the
Divine Incarnation. It is a very difficult path.
That is why Brahman as Bhagavan incarnates Himself as a man and
teaches people the path of devotion. He exhorts people to cultivate self-
surrender to God. Following the path of devotion, one realizes everything
through His grace - both knowledge and Supreme Wisdom.
****************************************************************
Sometime ago we had a discussion about whether bhaktas need the Advaita
experience. I found this interesting conversation below which suggests that
Sri Ramakrishna thinks the Advaita experience is not necessary for bhaktas.
****************************************************************
Mahima:"I have a question to ask sir. A lover of God needs Nirvana (total
annihilation of ego -- the ideal of the jnani) some time or other, doesn't
he?
Sri Ramakrishna:"It can't be said that bhaktas need Nirvana. According to some
schools there is an eternal Krishna and there are His eternal devotees.
Krishna is spirit embodied, and His abode is also spirit embodied. Krishna is
eternal and His devotees are also eternal."
- Sri Ramakrishna
P.S. All I would like to say is that Brahman is both Saguna and Nirguna.
Also, the word 'GUNA-ATHEETHA' becomes meaningless if Brahman is not fully devoid of Gunas.
PS: I have an objection to the word, 'Brahman is Saguna and nirguna at the same time'. For, Brahman is beyond Time and causation, there cannot be a concept of SAME, or TIME. This is known from meditating on it. <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sundarji,
What you have written is the classic Kevala Advaita philosophical
position. Ramakrishna Advaita which I follow differs from the classic
Advaita position. Ramakrishna Advaita says that there is a step further than
a Jnani which it calls Vijnani. The state of Vijnana is described in Gita 7.2
:Jnanam teham SAVIJNANAM idam vaksyamy asesatah
yaj jnatva neha bhuyonyaj jnatavyam avasisyate
(I shall now declare to you in fullness that knowledge (Jnana) along with
Special Knowledge (Vijnana: its higher development), by means of which there
will remain nothing more for you to understand. (Gita 7.2))
Kevala Advaita philosophical position is from the standpoint of a Jnani.
That is not, however, the last word at least according to Ramakrishna Advaita.
The last and highest word is from the point of view of the Vijnani as given in
Gita 7.2.
Ramakrishna Advaita does accept that Brahman is beyond vidya and avidya,
knowledge and ignorance. It is beyond maya, the illusion of duality. What
Brahman is cannot be described. All things in the world - the Vedas, the
Puranas, the Tantras, the six systems of philosophy - have been defiled, like
food that has been touched by the tongue. Only one thing has not been defiled
in this way, and that is Brahman. No one has ever been able to say what
Brahman is. Brahman is beyond word and thought. It is said in the Vedas that
Brahman is of the nature of Bliss. It is Satchidananda. In Samadhi one attains
the knowledge of Brahman - one realizes Brahman. In that state reasoning stops
altogether, and man becomes mute. He has no power to describe the nature of
Brahman. Brahman alone is real and the world is illusory - is philosophical
reasoning. This is an extremely difficult path. To one who follows it even the
divine play in the world becomes like a dream and appears unreal; his 'I' also
vanishes.
The jnani gives up his identification with worldly things,
discriminating, 'Not this, not this!' Only then can he realize Brahman. It is
like leaving the roof of a house by leaving the steps behind, one by one. But
the Vijnani, who is more intimately acquainted with Brahman, realizes something
more. He realizes that the steps are made of the same materials as the roof:
bricks, lime, and the brick-dust. That which is realized intuitively as
Brahman through the eliminating process of 'Not this, not this' is then found
to have become the universe and all its living beings. The Vijnani sees that
the Reality which is nirguna, without attributes, is also saguna with
attributes.
A man can not live on the roof a long time. He comes down again. Those
who realize Brahman in samadhi comes down also and find that it is Brahman
that has become the universe and its living beings. In the musical scale there
are the notes sa, re, ga, ma, pa, dha, and ni; but one cannot keep one's
voice on 'ni' a long time. The ego does not vanish altogether. The man coming
down from samadhi perceives that it is Brahman that has become the ego, the
universe, and all living beings. That is known as Vijnana.
The vijnani sees that Brahman is immovable and actionless like Mount
Sumeru. This universe consists of three gunas - sattva, rajas, and tamas. They
are in Brahman. But Brahman is unattached. (Gunatita does NOT mean that the
Gunas are not in Brahman. It means that Gunas do not affect Brahman.) The
Vijnani further sees that what is Brahman is the Bhagavan, the Personal God.
He who is beyond the three gunas is the Bhagavan with His six supernatural
powers. Living beings, the universe, mind, intelligence, love, renunciation,
knowledge - all these are the manifestations of His power. Bhagavan or Saguna Brahman
can not be sublated since Bhagavan is also Brahman. A Jnani thinks Saguna Brahman
is sublated because a Jnani has not yet reached the final step, i.e. the position of a Vijnani.
Why does Brahman appear as Bhagavan? Brahman alone is real and the
world is illusory - that is reasoning - is a very difficult path. To one who
follows it even the divine play in the world becomes like a dream and appears
unreal; his 'I' also vanishes. The followers of this path do not accept the
Divine Incarnation. It is a very difficult path.
That is why Brahman as Bhagavan incarnates Himself as a man and
teaches people the path of devotion. He exhorts people to cultivate self-
surrender to God. Following the path of devotion, one realizes everything
through His grace - both knowledge and Supreme Wisdom.
****************************************************************
Sometime ago we had a discussion about whether bhaktas need the Advaita
experience. I found this interesting conversation below which suggests that
Sri Ramakrishna thinks the Advaita experience is not necessary for bhaktas.
****************************************************************
Mahima:"I have a question to ask sir. A lover of God needs Nirvana (total
annihilation of ego -- the ideal of the jnani) some time or other, doesn't
he?
Sri Ramakrishna:"It can't be said that bhaktas need Nirvana. According to some
schools there is an eternal Krishna and there are His eternal devotees.
Krishna is spirit embodied, and His abode is also spirit embodied. Krishna is
eternal and His devotees are also eternal."
- Sri Ramakrishna
P.S. All I would like to say is that Brahman is both Saguna and Nirguna.