01-25-2005, 11:39 PM
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->So if it's going to take you couple years to make sure *one* student 'is ready' while those Mahila priest centers in India have already trained over 7000 women in past 15+ years, would you agree that they are working on reforms at a lot greater pace than you ever can? But here you are on this very page claim 'time up' when it comes to others working on reforms. A contradiction?<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, yes and no Viren. Here and there, about half a dozen padasalas have reformed as I mentioned before. Regarding my student, I have to make sure that she is a real convert and this is a real career choice, so I have to let her mull over it for some time, make a pilgrimage or two to India and see if that is what she really want before making that decision. I bet she wont, and would opt to be a sannyasini. If that happens, I'll send her to Amma.
Anyway, this is not a numbers game of how many converts we have. Even one is enough, if it is truly her path. This is the ultimate ethical conversion method; no force , no coercion , no promises. Take it or leave it! There are several more other students of many races but they are still a long way away.
The point I am making is that Hinduism is not ready to receive such persons with open arms, and until we can make the necessary reforms, we cannot win over the christians and muslims and India's woes with these people must continue. Hence the haste in reforming.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->What's not understandable is a sane person like you advocating this.
Let me give you an example, in US, forty acres and mule were promised to the blacks over 150 years ago. Can your US friends put pressure on the local govt to get an inch (of land) for their black fellow citizens in say Detroit (Michigan - believe NavyaShastra was founded there)? <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Fair enough. Injustice in other lands is no reason for us to close our eyes to our own people. We intervened in South Africa, in Tibet, and elsewhere. I asked the question, do we have cases in the world court? We are a signatory aren't we? What does this mean? It means we can sue the Indian govt and organisations in India, and vice versa. We need that as we need to sue the christians and muslims too. It works both ways.
Apart from pride, what reason is there for Hinduism to stay shy of human rights abuses and abuse of Hindu rights, and take action to resolve it? Has India to make these decisions only? Is not Nepal and Bali Hindu nations too?
Another reason I am giving; no nation in this globalised world is an island, immune from pressure. Surely you realise this? This has deep implications for growing India as she grows deeply intertwined with the rest of the world. India is now a trading nation and dependent on oil. Its an international dependency nation as most other nations already are. Knowing this, I am willing to go further and say that the common man in India would not object to intervention if his livelihood is not jeopardised and the politicians got rid off. Its the middle class and the politicians who have these 'arrogant nationalistic ideals', not even realising that its Malaysians that forced those concessions to built most of their highways, in return for India buying palm oil. Did you know this?
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--> By 2010 the per capita income would be about $3,500, poverty levels below 10% and unemployment just below 4%.
Wishful thinking. Check other so called 'industrialized' or 'developed' nations and check their existing class structure and you'll see this argument doesn't hold any water.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sorry, these are World Bank forecasts, and its not wishful thinking as per Indian and asian economists too. Have some faith man. Per capita Income today is already $2,400. So its easily attainable. Discussed thoroughly in BR some years ago. When dalits are an empowered, structures will change. They will be the new paying patrons of the religion and what they say must happen. Brahmin priestly class unfortunately will mostly remain in poverty, hence they will leave the profession in numbers. Even now soon after the trial the exodus will begin.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Take your idea of abolishing reservations (you have my uninanimous support) and see how many dalits will agree with you on the 'easier to come' statement. Check Vikram Masoon's own statements on Dalit leadership not co-operating on bringing forth reforms and you'll get your answers.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You are right, the dalits and OBC's wont. Thats what I', saying too. Therefore the international pressure. You are right, dalits are divided into Hindu, christian and muslims and will not cooperate. Therefore the international pressure sans religious identity. Tell, me honestly, is there any other way? I am willing to listen.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->In this globalised economy and evolving world this change is bound to happen. Field is open to non brahmins if you look around and it's an open season for anyone taking up this cause commercially.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Here and therefore, yes I agree its an open field. I am asking now, is Tirupati, Kasi, Madurai and Sabarimalai open to Hindu priests of any race, sex, caste? This is the least we require and its non negotiable. Sooner or later there is going to be an Indian pope, and no matter what we must circumvent this. Its not enough to say we have a muslim president, a sikh PM, blah, blah.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Your joy and glee expressed with JS arrest was for 'JS the seer' (per your post) for "laying bare the image of brahmins, sects and empty traditions". But the seer was arrested and was/is on trial for murder! Of course, justice is welcome - but for the crime committed and not some perceived prejudice. <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Very well. Its the tradition and its inherent fallacies that allowed the seer to apparently commit such a crime. As I said before, lets not just blame JS alone. He is the fall guy. I clearly blamed the whole sampradaya and its teachings, but absolved JS immediately because he was karmically chosen for such a task. But you probably missed those posts. The logic is, if there is something wrong in the foundation, teachings and practices, it will eventually show up. If there is something wrong in the DNA it will show up, no matter how long it takes. Therefore we face it and correct it. It now has and we will study the entire gamut.
No Rajesh,
Honestly, I dont know what you are talking about.
This thread is existing because of your carelessness and 'your egoistic' need to manure and goad it. Its BR all over again. I am not giving you a reason to keep it alive as your post is not seer related issues and therefore I wont respond. But this is all a tall man like you can do - close a thread. You worked hard for this and deserve a break. I'm a member of this forum, not this thread, but thats gots nothing to do with you as a moderator, has it?
Pathma
Well, yes and no Viren. Here and there, about half a dozen padasalas have reformed as I mentioned before. Regarding my student, I have to make sure that she is a real convert and this is a real career choice, so I have to let her mull over it for some time, make a pilgrimage or two to India and see if that is what she really want before making that decision. I bet she wont, and would opt to be a sannyasini. If that happens, I'll send her to Amma.
Anyway, this is not a numbers game of how many converts we have. Even one is enough, if it is truly her path. This is the ultimate ethical conversion method; no force , no coercion , no promises. Take it or leave it! There are several more other students of many races but they are still a long way away.
The point I am making is that Hinduism is not ready to receive such persons with open arms, and until we can make the necessary reforms, we cannot win over the christians and muslims and India's woes with these people must continue. Hence the haste in reforming.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->What's not understandable is a sane person like you advocating this.
Let me give you an example, in US, forty acres and mule were promised to the blacks over 150 years ago. Can your US friends put pressure on the local govt to get an inch (of land) for their black fellow citizens in say Detroit (Michigan - believe NavyaShastra was founded there)? <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Fair enough. Injustice in other lands is no reason for us to close our eyes to our own people. We intervened in South Africa, in Tibet, and elsewhere. I asked the question, do we have cases in the world court? We are a signatory aren't we? What does this mean? It means we can sue the Indian govt and organisations in India, and vice versa. We need that as we need to sue the christians and muslims too. It works both ways.
Apart from pride, what reason is there for Hinduism to stay shy of human rights abuses and abuse of Hindu rights, and take action to resolve it? Has India to make these decisions only? Is not Nepal and Bali Hindu nations too?
Another reason I am giving; no nation in this globalised world is an island, immune from pressure. Surely you realise this? This has deep implications for growing India as she grows deeply intertwined with the rest of the world. India is now a trading nation and dependent on oil. Its an international dependency nation as most other nations already are. Knowing this, I am willing to go further and say that the common man in India would not object to intervention if his livelihood is not jeopardised and the politicians got rid off. Its the middle class and the politicians who have these 'arrogant nationalistic ideals', not even realising that its Malaysians that forced those concessions to built most of their highways, in return for India buying palm oil. Did you know this?
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--> By 2010 the per capita income would be about $3,500, poverty levels below 10% and unemployment just below 4%.
Wishful thinking. Check other so called 'industrialized' or 'developed' nations and check their existing class structure and you'll see this argument doesn't hold any water.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sorry, these are World Bank forecasts, and its not wishful thinking as per Indian and asian economists too. Have some faith man. Per capita Income today is already $2,400. So its easily attainable. Discussed thoroughly in BR some years ago. When dalits are an empowered, structures will change. They will be the new paying patrons of the religion and what they say must happen. Brahmin priestly class unfortunately will mostly remain in poverty, hence they will leave the profession in numbers. Even now soon after the trial the exodus will begin.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Take your idea of abolishing reservations (you have my uninanimous support) and see how many dalits will agree with you on the 'easier to come' statement. Check Vikram Masoon's own statements on Dalit leadership not co-operating on bringing forth reforms and you'll get your answers.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You are right, the dalits and OBC's wont. Thats what I', saying too. Therefore the international pressure. You are right, dalits are divided into Hindu, christian and muslims and will not cooperate. Therefore the international pressure sans religious identity. Tell, me honestly, is there any other way? I am willing to listen.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->In this globalised economy and evolving world this change is bound to happen. Field is open to non brahmins if you look around and it's an open season for anyone taking up this cause commercially.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Here and therefore, yes I agree its an open field. I am asking now, is Tirupati, Kasi, Madurai and Sabarimalai open to Hindu priests of any race, sex, caste? This is the least we require and its non negotiable. Sooner or later there is going to be an Indian pope, and no matter what we must circumvent this. Its not enough to say we have a muslim president, a sikh PM, blah, blah.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Your joy and glee expressed with JS arrest was for 'JS the seer' (per your post) for "laying bare the image of brahmins, sects and empty traditions". But the seer was arrested and was/is on trial for murder! Of course, justice is welcome - but for the crime committed and not some perceived prejudice. <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Very well. Its the tradition and its inherent fallacies that allowed the seer to apparently commit such a crime. As I said before, lets not just blame JS alone. He is the fall guy. I clearly blamed the whole sampradaya and its teachings, but absolved JS immediately because he was karmically chosen for such a task. But you probably missed those posts. The logic is, if there is something wrong in the foundation, teachings and practices, it will eventually show up. If there is something wrong in the DNA it will show up, no matter how long it takes. Therefore we face it and correct it. It now has and we will study the entire gamut.
No Rajesh,
Honestly, I dont know what you are talking about.
This thread is existing because of your carelessness and 'your egoistic' need to manure and goad it. Its BR all over again. I am not giving you a reason to keep it alive as your post is not seer related issues and therefore I wont respond. But this is all a tall man like you can do - close a thread. You worked hard for this and deserve a break. I'm a member of this forum, not this thread, but thats gots nothing to do with you as a moderator, has it?
Pathma