From another forum by CHIRON
One who refers to the Indian subcontinent as Bhaarat and considers Bhaarat as his fatherland (or motherland) and most revered land (Punyabhoomi) is a Hindu.
<i>
So I can understand this better - can you expand on how such a characterization benefits Hindus or India? What does this translate to in terms of policies to keep out the extreme exclusivists from the Abrahamic religions?</i>
Here we go...
1. I ask to stop using the word "Hindu" as it is more geographical than religious. Ever since religious connotations have been given to this original geographical word, the fractures in Indic society have widened. Buddhists, Jains and Sikhs have problems with word "hindu" because it has been artificially constructed and imbibed upon minds of people as the one in same league as Islam or christianity.
2. The fact that Conglomerate of Indic paths is not as crystalline as Abrahamic ones, gives us an added advantage in Bhaarat, if we show correct understanding of Dharma.
3. The policies for assimilation of otherwise exclusivist Indian Abrahamics into mainstream Indic society have to be multi-faceted, yet inter-dependent.
4. Such revolution happened in India about 2200-2300 years ago. Around the times of Mauryas, when the influence of Indra and his Vedic deities started decreasing and there was emergence of Puranic trinity of Brahma-Vishnu-Mahesh in Indic society. This, IMHO, was one of the biggest revolution in India which enabled the unification of all the animist religions of India into one civilizational and cultural glue.
For more information on how this assimilation occurred, please visit this link on my blog where I have shared my views on this issue.
5. The shift from Indra-based Vedic deities which were essentially warriors to family oriented Vishnu-Shiva-Devi ensured the universal acceptance of the core values of Vedas all across the subcontinent without much clashes from local religions. This created the civilizational glue in first place. If Indra-Agni-Varuna still reigned supreme, there would never have been a pan-Indian civilization which we so venerate today.
6. The point to be noted is, Indra et al are much more exclusivists than Vishnu et al. The worshippers of Indra in Rigveda are much more violently intolerant towards Panis, Dasyus and other non-Arya (Anaarya) tribes. This was lost as civilization became more agriculture oriented, hence a set of more benign and inclusive deities was required.
7. In all this process, the core Vedic values, ideals, philosophy was preserved. The Saamkhya, Yoga, Vedanta, Nyaya, Mimamsa, Vedas, Smritis, Jain literature, Bauddha literature was preserved and propagated throughout the subcontinent and beyond. Although the deeper values remained confined to classes. This is but natural.. Very few people in society have propensity to think about higher truth in life or in other words Moksha/Nirvana. Most of us are more pre-occupied with daily routine, in other words, our Dharma, Artha and Kaama.
8. This shows us that identity is a continuous process.. It is always in making and never completely made.
9. Bhaarat and Bhaaratiya civilization needs to make one more leap like this, to accommodate the exclusivist Abrahamic civilization.
10. We cannot deal with this by being more exclusive than them and yet maintain the cultural glue. This is proven by the fact that the problems in Indian subcontinent have arisen and increased ever since this illusive and exclusive identity of "Hinduism" was created by the british. This not only divided Indic society more, but also forced Indic society to play the game on the strengths of Abrahamic memes.
11. Abrahamic memes and ideals thrive on mutually exclusive identity. They gain strength there. That is exactly where we loose strength, because we are trying to beat those memes by playing on their strengths and not on ours.
12. Now, Indic civilization has two options.
a) to play on the strengths of Abrahamic memes and defeat them. This can be ensured by becoming more violently exclusivists and proselytizers than them. This is possible by reverting back to Indra-based Vedic system of warlord deities who destroy the non-aryans and consume Soma and compose esoteric literature. This is very powerful option and if utilized efficiently, can be helpful in tackling the Islam and Christianity in India. This system is primarily fueled by similar faith towards Indra et al and similar attitude of supremacy and disgust towards non-aryans as Abrahamics have towards non-believers. The idea that Indra is with the person in his quest of destroying non-aryans is a very strong idea and extremely potent one just like the ones in Abrahamic texts.
Disadvantages of this system is that it will disrupt the already glued Indian civilization to its very basic core. Unless the status of being a pure "Aarya" is extended to all non-abrahamic Indics, it is impossible to maintain the glued civilization together. Even if the neo-Vedics end up destroying the forces and citadels of neo-Vritra asura with the help of mighty Indra, they will end up alienating most of the Non-Vedic and Non-Arya Indian population and undo whatever efforts were taken by philosophers and sages throughout the history to glue entire subcontinent in one thread of civilizational commonality.
b) The second option in front of Indic civilization is to play on its on strength which is apparently the dire weakness of the opposing Abrahamic meme. The point to be noted is, after our shift to more inclusive deities, our sphere of influence extended from Central Asia to South-east Asia. The maximum extent of Indo-sphere was achieved owing to accommodative inclusiveness. The strength of this glued Bhaaratiya civilization is Unity in diversity. Inherent Advaita in apparent Dvaita. The thing about this approach is that it is ever dynamic. Yet, it is at equilibrium with core values. Shift from Religion and Nation centric socio-politics of Europe to Dharma and Raashtra centric socio-politics of Bhaarat is what is required to bring in. The strength of our system is allegiance towards one's Dharma irrespective of personal faith or conviction. Personal faiths are subject to evolution and change. Dharma is not.
Thus, first task is to imbibe the true meaning of the term "Dharma" in the minds of people along with the supreme emphasis on following it.
Dharma is not == to Religion.
this has to be thoroughly and deeply imbibed on the mind of every single person in Bhaarat. Once personal faith is delineated and detached from core concept of Dharma, then it will sound death-knell to the exclusive character of Abrahamic religions. Then it won't take much time for Christ to become 10th avataar of Vishnu and Muhammad to become Sant Muhammad or 12 avataar of Shiva/Rudra.
This approach will change the "Hinduism" as we know it today. But it should be noted that "Hinduism" is anyways an artificial construct. It was not the same 200 years ago and won't be the same 200 years hence. In Bhaaratiya civilization, change is the only constant. Things which do not change, go extinct. Abrahamic memes in India have to follow this.
Relation of all this with Hindutva and Hindu-Rashtra definition of Savarkar
Now the question is, how is all this related to Savarkar's definition of Hindutva. Here is an attempt to answer.
Hindutva literally means Indian-ness. The core of India and Indianness is found in Vedas. The core is allegiance towards land of Sapta-Sindhu and culture and civilization of Sapta-Sindhu.
This concept and high reverence of Sapta-Sindhu is central concept of Vedic literature. The most beautiful part of Bhaaratiya civilization is the process how the radius of this Sapta-Sindhu region increased and expanded with time.
The original Sapta-Sindhu region in early hymns of Rigveda comprises of 5 rivers of Punjab, Saraswati and Kubha (Kabul) river. This land is glorified as Sapta-Sindhu. The dwellers of this land are Arya people who are pure, rich, righteous and civilized men on earth who are Kavis (poets) composing beautiful literature and performing grand Yagnas to please their mighty Devas.
In later Rigveda, in nadi-stuti sukta of 10th mandala, the Sapta-Sindhu region includes Ganga and Yamuna as well. Thus, now, this idea of Sapta-Sindhu, its culture and civilzation comprised of entire north Indian plains, from Bengal to NWFP.
In Puranic times post Rigveda, new Sapta-Sindhu concept became popular with time. This is shown in famous verse
à¤à¤à¤à¥à¤ यमà¥à¤¨à¥à¤à¥à¤µ à¤à¥à¤¦à¤¾à¤µà¤°à¥ सरसà¥à¤µà¤¤à¥
नरà¥à¤®à¤¦à¥ सिनà¥à¤§à¥ à¤à¤¾à¤µà¥à¤°à¥ à¤à¤²à¥à¤¸à¥à¤®à¤¿à¤¨ सनà¥à¤¨à¤¿à¤§à¤¿à¤® à¤à¥à¤°à¥
Now, Sapta-Sindhu includes the region of Ganga, Yamuna, Godavari, Saraswati, Narmada, Sindhu and Kaveri. Basically, entire Indian subcontinent. Interestingly, the rivers west of Sindhu were no longer considered as part of Sapta Sindhu region.
Sapta-Sindhu is the word which gave birth to the word "Hindu". The Civilization of Sapta-Sindhu was referred to as Hapta-Hindu by Persians and other outsiders. The people of this region and culture, the Sapta-Saindhavas were referred to as hapta-Haindavas by Persians and other outsiders. All these terms are found in Zend Avesta of Parsi people.
In all its context, Sapta-Sindhu has been the homeland of Sapta-Saindhavas (Bhaaratiyas). This has been the Punya-Bhoomi (revered land) of them. This has been the Pitrubhoomi and Matrubhoomi of Sapta-Saindhavas and Bhaaratiyas. The very concept of Bhaarat originated from land of seven rivers and expands with the same. The concept of Bhaarat was Punjab during Vedic war of ten kings. The concept of Bhaarat in Vishnupuran was same as pan-subcontinental identity of Sapta-Sindhu.
This origin of their identities should be explained to every single resident of Indian subcontinent.
One more defining feature which was preserved all throughout the history of our civilization is the sense of supremacy of Arya over Anaarya people. The famous quotation of à¤à¥à¤£à¥à¤µà¤¨à¥à¤¤à¥ विशà¥à¤µà¤ à¤à¤°à¥à¤¯à¤® (lets make the whole world "Arya" or civilized) denotes the same fact. Vedic memes did that, by extending the status of "civilized/Aarya" to all the residents of Indian subcontinent who accepted the Dharmic way of life. The land of "Arya/civilized" automatically became Sapta-Sindhu and hence Bhaarat. Muslims and Christians are still considered as Anaarya and Mlenchha by our people. This worked in medieval times with Muslims and Christians of foreign origin. Indian Muslims and Indian Christians are as much Indians as Indian Non-Abrahamics. This strategy needs to be updated.
The concept of Arya needs to be extended to IM and IC who understand, appreciate and follow the concept of Dharma and delineate and differentiate their personal faiths of attaining Moksha from Dharma-Artha-Kaama of daily life. Separation of Dharma and Moksha is the true definition of secularism in Indian context.
If general population is counselled about the actual meaning of the concept of "Dharma", concept of "Arya" and concept of "Sapta-Sindhu and Bhaarat", this will generate an enormous selective pressure on Indianization and assimilation of Abrahamic memes. Just like followers of Abrahamic ideologies should Indianize themselves, followers of Indic ideologies much increase their inclusiveness and expand their ideas of Sapta-Sindhu once again.
One who refers to the Indian subcontinent as Bhaarat and considers Bhaarat as his fatherland (or motherland) and most revered land (Punyabhoomi) is a Hindu.
<i>
So I can understand this better - can you expand on how such a characterization benefits Hindus or India? What does this translate to in terms of policies to keep out the extreme exclusivists from the Abrahamic religions?</i>
Here we go...
1. I ask to stop using the word "Hindu" as it is more geographical than religious. Ever since religious connotations have been given to this original geographical word, the fractures in Indic society have widened. Buddhists, Jains and Sikhs have problems with word "hindu" because it has been artificially constructed and imbibed upon minds of people as the one in same league as Islam or christianity.
2. The fact that Conglomerate of Indic paths is not as crystalline as Abrahamic ones, gives us an added advantage in Bhaarat, if we show correct understanding of Dharma.
3. The policies for assimilation of otherwise exclusivist Indian Abrahamics into mainstream Indic society have to be multi-faceted, yet inter-dependent.
4. Such revolution happened in India about 2200-2300 years ago. Around the times of Mauryas, when the influence of Indra and his Vedic deities started decreasing and there was emergence of Puranic trinity of Brahma-Vishnu-Mahesh in Indic society. This, IMHO, was one of the biggest revolution in India which enabled the unification of all the animist religions of India into one civilizational and cultural glue.
For more information on how this assimilation occurred, please visit this link on my blog where I have shared my views on this issue.
5. The shift from Indra-based Vedic deities which were essentially warriors to family oriented Vishnu-Shiva-Devi ensured the universal acceptance of the core values of Vedas all across the subcontinent without much clashes from local religions. This created the civilizational glue in first place. If Indra-Agni-Varuna still reigned supreme, there would never have been a pan-Indian civilization which we so venerate today.
6. The point to be noted is, Indra et al are much more exclusivists than Vishnu et al. The worshippers of Indra in Rigveda are much more violently intolerant towards Panis, Dasyus and other non-Arya (Anaarya) tribes. This was lost as civilization became more agriculture oriented, hence a set of more benign and inclusive deities was required.
7. In all this process, the core Vedic values, ideals, philosophy was preserved. The Saamkhya, Yoga, Vedanta, Nyaya, Mimamsa, Vedas, Smritis, Jain literature, Bauddha literature was preserved and propagated throughout the subcontinent and beyond. Although the deeper values remained confined to classes. This is but natural.. Very few people in society have propensity to think about higher truth in life or in other words Moksha/Nirvana. Most of us are more pre-occupied with daily routine, in other words, our Dharma, Artha and Kaama.
8. This shows us that identity is a continuous process.. It is always in making and never completely made.
9. Bhaarat and Bhaaratiya civilization needs to make one more leap like this, to accommodate the exclusivist Abrahamic civilization.
10. We cannot deal with this by being more exclusive than them and yet maintain the cultural glue. This is proven by the fact that the problems in Indian subcontinent have arisen and increased ever since this illusive and exclusive identity of "Hinduism" was created by the british. This not only divided Indic society more, but also forced Indic society to play the game on the strengths of Abrahamic memes.
11. Abrahamic memes and ideals thrive on mutually exclusive identity. They gain strength there. That is exactly where we loose strength, because we are trying to beat those memes by playing on their strengths and not on ours.
12. Now, Indic civilization has two options.
a) to play on the strengths of Abrahamic memes and defeat them. This can be ensured by becoming more violently exclusivists and proselytizers than them. This is possible by reverting back to Indra-based Vedic system of warlord deities who destroy the non-aryans and consume Soma and compose esoteric literature. This is very powerful option and if utilized efficiently, can be helpful in tackling the Islam and Christianity in India. This system is primarily fueled by similar faith towards Indra et al and similar attitude of supremacy and disgust towards non-aryans as Abrahamics have towards non-believers. The idea that Indra is with the person in his quest of destroying non-aryans is a very strong idea and extremely potent one just like the ones in Abrahamic texts.
Disadvantages of this system is that it will disrupt the already glued Indian civilization to its very basic core. Unless the status of being a pure "Aarya" is extended to all non-abrahamic Indics, it is impossible to maintain the glued civilization together. Even if the neo-Vedics end up destroying the forces and citadels of neo-Vritra asura with the help of mighty Indra, they will end up alienating most of the Non-Vedic and Non-Arya Indian population and undo whatever efforts were taken by philosophers and sages throughout the history to glue entire subcontinent in one thread of civilizational commonality.
b) The second option in front of Indic civilization is to play on its on strength which is apparently the dire weakness of the opposing Abrahamic meme. The point to be noted is, after our shift to more inclusive deities, our sphere of influence extended from Central Asia to South-east Asia. The maximum extent of Indo-sphere was achieved owing to accommodative inclusiveness. The strength of this glued Bhaaratiya civilization is Unity in diversity. Inherent Advaita in apparent Dvaita. The thing about this approach is that it is ever dynamic. Yet, it is at equilibrium with core values. Shift from Religion and Nation centric socio-politics of Europe to Dharma and Raashtra centric socio-politics of Bhaarat is what is required to bring in. The strength of our system is allegiance towards one's Dharma irrespective of personal faith or conviction. Personal faiths are subject to evolution and change. Dharma is not.
Thus, first task is to imbibe the true meaning of the term "Dharma" in the minds of people along with the supreme emphasis on following it.
Dharma is not == to Religion.
this has to be thoroughly and deeply imbibed on the mind of every single person in Bhaarat. Once personal faith is delineated and detached from core concept of Dharma, then it will sound death-knell to the exclusive character of Abrahamic religions. Then it won't take much time for Christ to become 10th avataar of Vishnu and Muhammad to become Sant Muhammad or 12 avataar of Shiva/Rudra.
This approach will change the "Hinduism" as we know it today. But it should be noted that "Hinduism" is anyways an artificial construct. It was not the same 200 years ago and won't be the same 200 years hence. In Bhaaratiya civilization, change is the only constant. Things which do not change, go extinct. Abrahamic memes in India have to follow this.
Relation of all this with Hindutva and Hindu-Rashtra definition of Savarkar
Now the question is, how is all this related to Savarkar's definition of Hindutva. Here is an attempt to answer.
Hindutva literally means Indian-ness. The core of India and Indianness is found in Vedas. The core is allegiance towards land of Sapta-Sindhu and culture and civilization of Sapta-Sindhu.
This concept and high reverence of Sapta-Sindhu is central concept of Vedic literature. The most beautiful part of Bhaaratiya civilization is the process how the radius of this Sapta-Sindhu region increased and expanded with time.
The original Sapta-Sindhu region in early hymns of Rigveda comprises of 5 rivers of Punjab, Saraswati and Kubha (Kabul) river. This land is glorified as Sapta-Sindhu. The dwellers of this land are Arya people who are pure, rich, righteous and civilized men on earth who are Kavis (poets) composing beautiful literature and performing grand Yagnas to please their mighty Devas.
In later Rigveda, in nadi-stuti sukta of 10th mandala, the Sapta-Sindhu region includes Ganga and Yamuna as well. Thus, now, this idea of Sapta-Sindhu, its culture and civilzation comprised of entire north Indian plains, from Bengal to NWFP.
In Puranic times post Rigveda, new Sapta-Sindhu concept became popular with time. This is shown in famous verse
à¤à¤à¤à¥à¤ यमà¥à¤¨à¥à¤à¥à¤µ à¤à¥à¤¦à¤¾à¤µà¤°à¥ सरसà¥à¤µà¤¤à¥
नरà¥à¤®à¤¦à¥ सिनà¥à¤§à¥ à¤à¤¾à¤µà¥à¤°à¥ à¤à¤²à¥à¤¸à¥à¤®à¤¿à¤¨ सनà¥à¤¨à¤¿à¤§à¤¿à¤® à¤à¥à¤°à¥
Now, Sapta-Sindhu includes the region of Ganga, Yamuna, Godavari, Saraswati, Narmada, Sindhu and Kaveri. Basically, entire Indian subcontinent. Interestingly, the rivers west of Sindhu were no longer considered as part of Sapta Sindhu region.
Sapta-Sindhu is the word which gave birth to the word "Hindu". The Civilization of Sapta-Sindhu was referred to as Hapta-Hindu by Persians and other outsiders. The people of this region and culture, the Sapta-Saindhavas were referred to as hapta-Haindavas by Persians and other outsiders. All these terms are found in Zend Avesta of Parsi people.
In all its context, Sapta-Sindhu has been the homeland of Sapta-Saindhavas (Bhaaratiyas). This has been the Punya-Bhoomi (revered land) of them. This has been the Pitrubhoomi and Matrubhoomi of Sapta-Saindhavas and Bhaaratiyas. The very concept of Bhaarat originated from land of seven rivers and expands with the same. The concept of Bhaarat was Punjab during Vedic war of ten kings. The concept of Bhaarat in Vishnupuran was same as pan-subcontinental identity of Sapta-Sindhu.
This origin of their identities should be explained to every single resident of Indian subcontinent.
One more defining feature which was preserved all throughout the history of our civilization is the sense of supremacy of Arya over Anaarya people. The famous quotation of à¤à¥à¤£à¥à¤µà¤¨à¥à¤¤à¥ विशà¥à¤µà¤ à¤à¤°à¥à¤¯à¤® (lets make the whole world "Arya" or civilized) denotes the same fact. Vedic memes did that, by extending the status of "civilized/Aarya" to all the residents of Indian subcontinent who accepted the Dharmic way of life. The land of "Arya/civilized" automatically became Sapta-Sindhu and hence Bhaarat. Muslims and Christians are still considered as Anaarya and Mlenchha by our people. This worked in medieval times with Muslims and Christians of foreign origin. Indian Muslims and Indian Christians are as much Indians as Indian Non-Abrahamics. This strategy needs to be updated.
The concept of Arya needs to be extended to IM and IC who understand, appreciate and follow the concept of Dharma and delineate and differentiate their personal faiths of attaining Moksha from Dharma-Artha-Kaama of daily life. Separation of Dharma and Moksha is the true definition of secularism in Indian context.
If general population is counselled about the actual meaning of the concept of "Dharma", concept of "Arya" and concept of "Sapta-Sindhu and Bhaarat", this will generate an enormous selective pressure on Indianization and assimilation of Abrahamic memes. Just like followers of Abrahamic ideologies should Indianize themselves, followers of Indic ideologies much increase their inclusiveness and expand their ideas of Sapta-Sindhu once again.

