<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->ShibaPJ wrote:
sanjaychoudhry wrote:
ShibaPJ wrote:
Last post on this OT. Comparing Indian response to terrorism to that of Israel/ US is laughable. Both countries put a premium on their countrymen's lives, and have pursued the terrorist lowlifes much beyond their own country. Comparing that to successive GoIs, who have clear-cut evidence of subversion/ terrorism/ what not against India and all they do is to whine to the so-called international community..
What actually are you suggesting ABV should have done to tackle the problem in the time available? I agree that not disabling the aircraft at Amritsar was a criminal lack of competence. But once the flight went out of Indian airspace, what were the options?
Agree on the lack of options after plane landed in Kandahar. But did we go after the lowlifes after the drama got over? While INC is responsible for many screwups pre and post-NDA, we should not overlook the fact that NDA regime saw some of the most heinous acts against India (Kandahar, parliament, Kargil, Kaluchak etc). and every time, except for whining, we did jack sh!t. Ironically, the last GoI to work with an iron fist (or pair of b@lls) was IG in 1971. JMTs, while we in BRF don't miss a bit to string MMS from the lamp-post, I get a feeling that people are more than liberal to absolve ABV/ NDA of any wrong-doing. BRF has always been ahead of the curve in analyzing geo-political theme and crystal-gazing; and BRFites should keep it that way w/o bringing personal prejudices into picture.
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What must not be forgotten is that the BJP were in power for the first proper length of time in reality. The Congress has decades of experience in dealing with the Indian power structure. In the case of the BJP, they learnt on the job and the presence of old timers like ABV, LKA, Brajesh et al must have been invaluable.
Coming to Kandahar, I dont think it was a BJP mistake as much as a structural one. Whether it had been BJP or UPA in power, the result would have been the same- simply put, no proper hostage rescue set up, no resources for the QRT (who can forget the farcical NSG is stuck in traffic business) and confusion at all levels of the security establishment who are supposed to react fast and save the situation till the higher ups get involved.
For Kaluchak- we did our level best to pay the Pakis back- by fire assaults day in and night out. Word was that GF had told the IA- fire as much you want, we'll see to the rest. I remember one Pak paper, close to the Paki power structure, writing epithets against GF and ABV the day after we took out a Pak brigade HQ.
Parliament attack was again a testament to Indian establishments structural weakness- we simply didnt have any proper reaction mechanism to non state/deniable acts, bar conventional war. And by precipitating a confrontation, we demonstrated that we were yet to think the whole thing through. And it was Parakram which led the IA to Cold Start. Till then, we had been stagnating in "dash to the Indus" mode with all attendant issues of logistics build up and nuke conflict.
If there is one thing that can be blamed on the BJP in part (not excusing the Pakis)- due to both its inexperience and naivete- doing something which the Congress would have done, its their "oops" at Kargil.
There are ample records to suggest that some of the brass in the IA and RAW were on "go slow" mode because of instructions from on high, and the Pakis (being Pakis) took full advantage of the fact, egged on by a Nawaz who now plays innocent.
The other incident which showed the relative naivete of the BJP was Godhra and its aftermath. Heres a horrific incident which shows that the so called canard of IMs being victims is untrue, and jihad has come home to roost in India. But they messed up on the security aspect, the riots spiralled out of control, and now the Gujarat riots are an albatross around the BJPs neck, and have become the replacement for Babri Masjid in attacking them. Just imagine, if Modi & the Central leadership had been more on the ball, had prevented riots AND taken stern action against the perpetrators- they would have done what a Congress regime has never done, respond decisively and with a locus standi to have done so. They were not sophisticated or mature enough to understand the bigger picture and they paid the price.
<span style='color:blue'>
All in all, I would rate them a 7 out of a 10 (charitably speaking) or even one point lower. However, even so, for relative newcomers to governance, they did some remarkable things:
- Established India as an overt nuclear state and didnt cave under both external and internal pressure
- Restarted Indias defence modernisation and with several epochal programs
- Kept up the economic reforms
- Proved that "hindu nationalists" were perfectly capable of running a Govt, keeping the economy running (and growing) and able to manage a fractious alliance
- Able to negotiate with a superpower without giving up any core interests
</span>
Most importantly, they didnt do the kind of shameless caste and minority appeasement that defines the Congress, and which is what makes that party so disreputable. Otherwise, it could regain ground.
sanjaychoudhry wrote:
ShibaPJ wrote:
Last post on this OT. Comparing Indian response to terrorism to that of Israel/ US is laughable. Both countries put a premium on their countrymen's lives, and have pursued the terrorist lowlifes much beyond their own country. Comparing that to successive GoIs, who have clear-cut evidence of subversion/ terrorism/ what not against India and all they do is to whine to the so-called international community..
What actually are you suggesting ABV should have done to tackle the problem in the time available? I agree that not disabling the aircraft at Amritsar was a criminal lack of competence. But once the flight went out of Indian airspace, what were the options?
Agree on the lack of options after plane landed in Kandahar. But did we go after the lowlifes after the drama got over? While INC is responsible for many screwups pre and post-NDA, we should not overlook the fact that NDA regime saw some of the most heinous acts against India (Kandahar, parliament, Kargil, Kaluchak etc). and every time, except for whining, we did jack sh!t. Ironically, the last GoI to work with an iron fist (or pair of b@lls) was IG in 1971. JMTs, while we in BRF don't miss a bit to string MMS from the lamp-post, I get a feeling that people are more than liberal to absolve ABV/ NDA of any wrong-doing. BRF has always been ahead of the curve in analyzing geo-political theme and crystal-gazing; and BRFites should keep it that way w/o bringing personal prejudices into picture.
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What must not be forgotten is that the BJP were in power for the first proper length of time in reality. The Congress has decades of experience in dealing with the Indian power structure. In the case of the BJP, they learnt on the job and the presence of old timers like ABV, LKA, Brajesh et al must have been invaluable.
Coming to Kandahar, I dont think it was a BJP mistake as much as a structural one. Whether it had been BJP or UPA in power, the result would have been the same- simply put, no proper hostage rescue set up, no resources for the QRT (who can forget the farcical NSG is stuck in traffic business) and confusion at all levels of the security establishment who are supposed to react fast and save the situation till the higher ups get involved.
For Kaluchak- we did our level best to pay the Pakis back- by fire assaults day in and night out. Word was that GF had told the IA- fire as much you want, we'll see to the rest. I remember one Pak paper, close to the Paki power structure, writing epithets against GF and ABV the day after we took out a Pak brigade HQ.
Parliament attack was again a testament to Indian establishments structural weakness- we simply didnt have any proper reaction mechanism to non state/deniable acts, bar conventional war. And by precipitating a confrontation, we demonstrated that we were yet to think the whole thing through. And it was Parakram which led the IA to Cold Start. Till then, we had been stagnating in "dash to the Indus" mode with all attendant issues of logistics build up and nuke conflict.
If there is one thing that can be blamed on the BJP in part (not excusing the Pakis)- due to both its inexperience and naivete- doing something which the Congress would have done, its their "oops" at Kargil.
There are ample records to suggest that some of the brass in the IA and RAW were on "go slow" mode because of instructions from on high, and the Pakis (being Pakis) took full advantage of the fact, egged on by a Nawaz who now plays innocent.
The other incident which showed the relative naivete of the BJP was Godhra and its aftermath. Heres a horrific incident which shows that the so called canard of IMs being victims is untrue, and jihad has come home to roost in India. But they messed up on the security aspect, the riots spiralled out of control, and now the Gujarat riots are an albatross around the BJPs neck, and have become the replacement for Babri Masjid in attacking them. Just imagine, if Modi & the Central leadership had been more on the ball, had prevented riots AND taken stern action against the perpetrators- they would have done what a Congress regime has never done, respond decisively and with a locus standi to have done so. They were not sophisticated or mature enough to understand the bigger picture and they paid the price.
<span style='color:blue'>
All in all, I would rate them a 7 out of a 10 (charitably speaking) or even one point lower. However, even so, for relative newcomers to governance, they did some remarkable things:
- Established India as an overt nuclear state and didnt cave under both external and internal pressure
- Restarted Indias defence modernisation and with several epochal programs
- Kept up the economic reforms
- Proved that "hindu nationalists" were perfectly capable of running a Govt, keeping the economy running (and growing) and able to manage a fractious alliance
- Able to negotiate with a superpower without giving up any core interests
</span>
Most importantly, they didnt do the kind of shameless caste and minority appeasement that defines the Congress, and which is what makes that party so disreputable. Otherwise, it could regain ground.