History Of Caste

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Hinduism, “Caste System” and discrimination - Join the debate
Posted on October 9, 2007 by B Shantanu

Dear Readers,

I am moving several comments on the Turkey and Secularism post here due to the fact that they are more to do with Hinduism and discrimination and less with the subject of the original post.

Please continue this discussion on this thread.

Thanks

*** COMMENTS BEGIN ***

1. Patriot, on October 8th, 2007

There is this whole positioning about Hinduism (excuse me, VCK) being such a tolerant religion, which has not imposed its faith on others.

I really, really want to question this:

Hinduism or Sanatana Dharma is a drawdown from the polytheistic faith of our ancestors who settled in the indus valley region (wherever they came from, that is another debate!). They settled and grew in what was probably the most fertile, productive and habitable region of the civilised world then (ex the Nile region). As a result, they never needed to go out of this region to ensure survival. All they needed to ensure is that any invaders did not wipe out their gene pool. Moreover, as invaders came and settled here, the original inhabitants accepted them into their gene pool, because the Invaders were militarily MORE POWERFUL.

Thus grew the myth of peace loving, non-geographical extending hindus. But, have you considered the following: While the Hindus did not harrass any external faith, they more than made up for it by what they did to people of their own faith!!!

1. The caste system - the longest running discrimination system in the world, both in terms of number of years and volume of people discriminated against
2. The treatment of women - child marriage, Sati, widows sent off to Benares to become prostitutes, temple prostitutes, no chance of owning property, I could go on and on
3. Education - Large scale deprivation of education for 85% of the population. All prayers said in Sanskrit (not understood by 95% of the people, equivalent to Latin masses of the Roman church) - this still goes on, no local languages are used.

I can go on and on, but I think this should be a good starting point for all those who believe Hinduism to be a peaceful religion to respond? And, my point is that a lot of the above practices are STILL going on …….. hinduism is like a cancer that feeds on its own people.

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2. v.c.krishnan, on October 8th, 2007

Dear Sir,

It is always hinduism and Caste! What about the caste system in the “Enlightened Educated Society’.
I am always surprised that the modern “Educated Individual” (EI for short) keeps harping on Rituals and Caste in the religion.

The EI considers it abhorring and “Feels” so much for the deprived. But suppose the same EI goes to a give a lecture at a place where only a three peice/coat is made compulsory to enter the hallowed precints. What does he do, he goes to the extent of even investing in one for a single night to be a part of this “Society”
The same EI feels it very comfortable where some places known as “Exclusive Clubs” and inside that a place known as a “Bar” , where people most times find it difficult to hold their physical needs under control, and what are they expected to wear– A Collared shirt, Pants, ( maybe the dhothi does not sufficiently cover the parts covered by a pant) and feet should be appropraitely covered— This means a Jibba/Kurta, a Dhoti, and a Chappal are not “wears” but something else!!

No EI would like to avoid such a place as he has to be part of the crowd and the “in society”.
For the EI this is not a casteless society but subscribing to certain norms.

Why single out a way of life and state that it has these flaws and leaves out people from this activity or that activity.
Just as a club has its norms and its bye laws every society carves out a way of life for it.
When one is not anathema why is the other considered so. Is it because the underlying feeling is that it is related to the next world where one catches up with the greatest person one wishes to meet—GOD! or is it anything else?

Caste in what ever form you may call it exists in every human being. So let us get down from our high horses and feel the earth for what it is.

Regards,
vck

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3. B Shantanu, on October 9th, 2007

@ Patriot: Thanks for contributing to the discussion with your thought-provoking remarks (as always!).

Hurried response (due to time pressure):

1. I believe it would be wrong to consider Hinduism as an organised religion

2. Re. the various “ills” of Hinduism that you mention, none of them find religious sanction in the Vedas - which I believe come closest to being an authoritative treatise(s) on Hinduism.

I certainly do not think that there is any religious basis for any kind of discrimination within Hindusim - either gender-based or “caste” based. I know such practices exist - but it is wrong to say that religion demands that we discriminate against women and others.

More on this hopefully later.

Thanks for joining the discussion.

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@ Vidhya: Welcome to the blog and look forward to more comments from you in the future.

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@ Nandan, Sanjeev and vck: Thanks for sharing your views.

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4. Patriot, on October 9th, 2007

@ Vck,

Are you really, really equating the caste system with dress codes???? And, are you justifying the caste system because “clubs” have dress codes? WOW!!!!!! That is really amazing and really, really scary. To hear such views even today.

@ Shantanu,

Thanks for your comments. I accept that Hinduism is not an organised religion like say, christianity, but its upper layers exhibit the same kind of organisational behaviour as any other organised religion.

RE: sanction of holy texts for discrimination - I do not think any “holy” text ever directy sanctions any discrimination, but the holy men of the day do their bit to twist the texts to support discrimination. This has been true of all religions (and it continues to be so in varying degree in all religions). In the case of Hinduism, though, you have had the added “inspiration” of Manusmriti, which probably started most of the regressive practices and sanctified it.

Look forward to hearing your usual balanaced thoughts on the issue!!

Cheers

***

5. Patriot, on October 9th, 2007

Shantanu,

I just read this post of yours: http://satyameva-jayate.org/2007/07/02/is-...oo-much-to-ask/

Very interesting post and also the link to Nava Shastra ….. Good to find at least one reforming religious organisation these days. If all the “Shankracharyas” start listening to what Nava Shastra is saying, we may yet make progress socially.

***

6. Nandan, on October 9th, 2007

Dear Shantanu:

Many of us consider Manu Smriti as the villain of Hindu Society. I have never read it. Yet, I can quote a couple of stanzas from it. Esp. the one relating to women “ na stree svatatyam arhati” is widely known to all and sundry. Even a lack of familiarity with Sanskrit language is not an impediment in understanding the meaning of the dictum.

I have always felt that Sanskrit impedes our understanding when it is used as the language for prayer. The quotes with such words as “satyam vada” , “dharmam chara” remain by far the most difficult ones for the modern non-Sanskrit scholars. However, they overcome the problem of language by reading the Ten Commandments which have been rendered in simple and easy to understand English.

I came across these two articles while browsing the internet. I think they are very informative.

http://www.india-forum.com/articles/5386/1...-on-Manu-Smriti

http://www.geocities.com/lamberdar/manu_smriti.html

Regards,

Nandan

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7. v.c.krishnan, on October 9th, 2007

Dear Sir,

That is precisely the point. Dress codes are not castist but a way of life is not accepted! Why because it is acceptable to the majority who think on the lines today. So if somebody thinks that dress codes are Castist it is ooph! scary.

That is the point I am trying to drive in. Each society creates its own self sufficiency and way of life, it may start with the dress code and may end up with Talibanism!
That is more scary than this ridiculous thought as of not accepting a way of life structured to the requirements of a society and riducling it.

I will rather live with the scare of the way of life rather than the Talibanistic dress code!
Regrds,
vck

***

8. Patriot, on October 9th, 2007

Dear VCK,

Based on your posts, I have to ask you this - have you ever faced or seen the discrimination that our caste system foists on people, who just happen to be unfortunate in birth??? Or, are you part of the elite that created this structure and said that this is great for our society and we should all accept this as a gift from our forefathers??

If you want to wear a dhoti, you can CHOOSE not to go to “westernised” clubs that discriminate on attire and it is no big deal.

But, if you are BORN a Chamar, then what DO YOU DO? Wait for rebirth?

(PS: I have deliberately used that harsh word in the previous sentence)

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9. Patriot, on October 9th, 2007

Apartheid in South Africa - about 100 years
Slavery in America - about 150 years
Feudalism in England/Europe - about 500-700 years
Caste System in India - over 2,000 years, and still going strong

Yeah, we sure are the leaders of the world ….. in world-class discrimination.

And, also give credit to those who set up and perpetuated the caste system - they created the longest running power system in the world, which survived emperors, kings, feudal chieftains, internal wars, the mongols, the mughals AND the english. WOW!!!

***

10. v.c.krishnan, on October 9th, 2007

Dear Sir,

A nose ring cost a job in London. Is it a dress code or is it a casteism? This inert thinking of caste is in prime need of extinguishment as the talibanistic and christian evangilical mentality of the Educated Intellecutal (EI) is being primed up frequently.

The traditions on which this society has grown has never looked at it as “caste”. It has looked at it only from the point view of a job and a way of life. The concept of caste “is mainly a foreign import as it exists only in the minds of the EI brought up in the talibanistic and christian evangilical educative method. The concept of divide and rule has replaced the wholesome concept of being together as a family.

Even in the Mahabharatha, Karna, the warrior is eugolised. Karna was called a “Charioteer’s son” and hence incompetent to fight with the warrior like Arjuna. There was no “caste involved here”. It was a way of life. Assuming Karna was truely a Charioteer and truly incapable and if Arjuna had fought with him it would have been one sided conflict and Arjuna would have been despiced as a Warrior as he fought with “only a Charioteer and not a true warrior”.

(I am only wondering what would have happened if Karna only had been only a charioteer’s son and Arjuna had fought with him, was there a human rights commission existing at that time - pity Arjuna).

That was not caste, it was a way of life.

Again, where Lord Rama is in search of Sita he meets Sabari, a tribal. She had tasted every fruit and kept the sweetest for him and Lord Rama ate the fruits. Here, Lord Rama is a Kshatriya / Warrior / Prince and according to the doubters of “Sanatana Dharma” an Aryan invader. (Was Sabari a part of invading race I do not know - the EI’s have to answer the question).

Coming back to the subject Lord Rama ate everything given to him was there any “caste” involved.

What are the EI’s talking: let them read the true history of India, not some history written by some guy from Cambridge or Oxford or other X,Y,Z foreign unviersity. Let him visit the Archives of BHU, Thanjavur palace, the Royal Archives of Rajasthan, Gwalior / Jodhpur / Jaisalmer and other royal families. Let the EI’s also read what is avaiable with the royal families of the Kerala.

The question is “caste” a desi or pardesi concept.

Even coming to the aspect of Buddhism, Prince Siddhartha did not leave because he was an upper caste and he found the lower caste being illiterate and downtrodden or illtreated. It was because he found the truth was not as it is seen but there was a greater truth to the way of life and he wanted to seek and attained nirvana. Even here the EI loses his protection of focusing on caste.

Buddhism is from India, I hope the EI’s do not dispute atleast this. So is caste desi or pardesi.

Unless the EI gets educated the problem will continue in fester in his mind.
Regards,
vck

*** END COMMENTS ***

Please continue the discussion below and use comment #s to refer to something said before. Hope this helps. Please also note that several comments are being caught in the “spam queue” but I am clearing it several times a day. Thanks.

Related Posts:

Is this too much to ask?

Utterly shameful and inexcusable…

Caste, Varna and Jatis: The need for clarity in intellectual debate

Filed under: Debates & Discussions, Distortions, Misrepresentation about Hinduism, Distortions, Misrepresentations about India, Hindu Dharma, Hindu Social System, Medieval Indian History, Sanatana Dharma, Women in Hinduism & India | Tagged: , Caste System, Castes, Discrimination, Hinduism, Jati Pratha, Varna
« Is India now officially “Hindu”?
5 Responses to “Hinduism, “Caste System” and discrimination - Join the debate”

1.
Bharat, on October 9th, 2007 at 9:00 pm Said:

How many of us know the origin of the word “Caste”? I am afraid, perhaps not many.

Do we find Caste word in any Bharatiya bhasa (Indian languages), prior to the advent of British and Portuguese? NO.

Caste is not an Indian word. It is derived from Portuguese word “Casta”. When Portuguese mercinaries and missionaries came to India, they found a kind of social (actually functional) divisions among the native people. Since their society already have Casta system, they started using the word Casta for Hindus too. British, later, popularised it and finally made a Caste-based population census in 1931.

Greek ambassador to Bharat/India, who lived five years in Pataliputra (present day Patna) during Maurya period (3rd century BCE) mentioned several occupations (around 10) of the people. His writings contain no words as caste.

Does that mean, we had no social divisions among Bharatiya people? We had, they are based on socio-economic functions, and not by birth-based system.
What we had/have is Varna system. And varna is not caste. Varna is not birth-based system. Rishis/sages of Vedic times were not surname holder Brahmins like today. They were brahmans by guna and karma, e.g. Valmiki, Vedavyasa.

Read Bhagavad Gita and see what it says about varna. Krishna says, these four varnas (Brahmana, Kshatriya, Vaishya and Sudra) are my creations based on guna (quality) and karma (actions). Nowhere it mentioned about birth-based system. It is impossible and impractical. If a Professor’s son become a criminal, does we call him Professor? If a dacoit’s son become a noble man and a saint/professor, do we call him dacoit?

And this divisions of society based on socio-economic fuctions exists in every society and it will remain. We have teachers, bankers, businessmen, cultivators, cleaners, contruction workers etc. All are performing their own actions and not bound by birth. They may move upwardly or downwardly. Smt Mayavati, Chief Minister of UP, is a ruler now. She is performing Kshatriya funtions, do we call her chammer? Does her guna and karma has anything to do with chamra (skin) or leather work?

What is important is the practice, practice what we preach. Those high priests here and in other medias vehemently criticise and oppose caste-system, most of them practice castism. They will be going to find a match/partner from same caste. So, lets practice and not merely criticise. By-birth castism will not go, unless we stoped practicing it; unless we accept, castism is racism and inhuman practice.

Dr Ambedkar said, “Castism is untouchability. Unless untouchability goes, castism will not go.” So, what we need is practice, practice and practice.
2.
Patriot, on October 9th, 2007 at 9:12 pm Said:

Nice theory, VCK, but you did not answer the questions that I posed in my post.

In theory, caste can be anything …. the varnas, a way of life, whatever. In practice, in Modern India, it is a tool of discrimination and enslavement. Are you saying we should justify this as a way of life???? What about the other stuff? Shall we re-institute the practice of Sati, since that is also part of our glorious culture? How about not allowing anyone apart from Brahmins from getting educated? That should be very popular and take us back to the pinnacle of our glory.

And, what does a nose ring costing a job in London have to do with my original point? That two wrongs make a right? Then, the London guys have a long way to go …… after all, 2000 years of discrimination is not easy to catch up with.

I DO NOT care what the original intention behind castes was … I only care about how it is being practiced today. As they say, the road to HELL is paved with good intentions.

And, please do not try to sidetrack this post into a discussion on western vs Indian cultures or dhoti vs trousers or whatever.

Please read my original post and then come back to me on the merits of what I am saying and the state of our society today, not some fanciful construct of what Arjun said to Karna and how that is relevant to our caste system.

I will not answer any more off-topic posts from you.

What astounds me, though, is the difference in the quality/tenor of your comments in the “is india a hindu state” post and this one.
3.
Patriot, on October 9th, 2007 at 10:32 pm Said:

Bharat,

The theory of the vocation based varnas as the basis for the caste system is well known ……. but is that the social system that exists today?

With hand on heart, can you truthfully say that a non birth-based system has existed for the last 500 years? 1000 years? 1500 years?

I think there is enough historical evidence to suggest that the vocation based varnas degenerated into a birth-based one very early in its life. And, that is not surprising when you think about it ….. if you are a Brahmin and control access to the scriptures, would you not want to perpetuate it? If you are a Kshatriya ruler of a kingdom, will you not want to pass on the kingdom to your blood son? Or would you rather hold a contest in your kingdom to check who is the most valorous one? It is human nature - when you have power, you want to perpetuate it. And, that is the problem of our caste system …. it is a tool of power, of subjugation.

In the current context, it is as you say …. what do you actually practice?
4.
Nandan, on October 9th, 2007 at 11:40 pm Said:

I fully agree with Patriots view that discrimination of any kind, whether in the name of caste or way of life, is abominable. We must not even try to defend it. No purpose will be served by closing our eyes to facts. It is a fact that discrimination existed in India for a long time. It is also a fact that the intensity of discrimination has reduced today due to a number of reasons.

There is no denying that oppression and suffering have turned many away from the religion of their birth. But our society has undergone many positive changes in the twentieth century. Now our task is to let such reforms continue unhindered. For this to happen, we must own up our past mistakes and provide equal opportunities for all

However, in certain parts of India, we are witnessing the trend of reverse discrimination. Tamil Nadu is an example. There is wide spread discrimination against the Brahmins there. What is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. The present generation must not be held responsible for the acts of a previous generation.

Patriot has made a reference to “Navya Shastra” in his Comment #5. I had never heard of such a movement. What a fantastic thing to happen. We do not know whether the movement is the result of real repentance or just motivated by self preservation. Whatever it is, we must all vow to support the beautiful idea. This is the way to carry forward the reforms. It is time to stop the blame game. We must acknowledge each other’s contributions, take responsibility and strive to build a nation that can truly be called “VASUDHA IVA KUDUMBAKAM”

Regards
Nandan
5.
B Shantanu, on October 10th, 2007 at 12:01 am Said:

Dear All,

The history of the caste system is too complex to be dismissed in sound-bites and short comments to a post (to get a sense of how complex, have a look at the linked article on “Caste, Varna and Jatis”)

We have a choice of dwelling on the past and studying history OR of making sure that the evil is eradicated.

I am clear about my own position: While I remain seriously interested in the origins of the caste system and how it morphed into what we see today, beyond a point, such a discussion becomes academic and/or unproductive.

Instead, let us look at what we have today and how can we make it better in the future.

A good beginning could be NavyaShastra - and I am certain there are lots of other good ideas out there.

Can we focus on them rather than on the finer nuances of caste system (although it is a worthy topic of academic research)?

Dhanyawaad.