From post 86:
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->I believe that one way of indicating "seriousness" in promoting regional languages would be to ensure that technical textbooks are all translated into regional languages, followed by the setting up of regional language colleges that awarded engineering, medical, pharmacy or other degrees that are on par with qualifications obtained in English. Do such universities exist? Is there any serious body that translates technical jargon into regional languages or at least Sanskrit? Are there any regional language textbooks on computer programming? I have never seen one. Who are the people working in this direction? Who funds them?<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->This bit is interesting if it were completely true in the Indian case.
If so, then the Indian government is either being defeatist or sabotaging our identity on purpose.
Though I didn't do uni in DE or NL, I do know with certainty (as I looked into it) that the medium of *every single subject* is German and Dutch alone - from primary to tertiary education. (Unless some stuck-up person studies in an American school or whatever they're called.)
The same is true in France and I'm guessing all European countries.
At uni-level, Germans and Dutch people at least are able to translate their own journal articles into English for publication in English-language journals - in addition to their original article written in their own language which was also meant for publication. They are certainly not bad at all in English when they are at university. I've had to read quite a few such articles translated into English by the PhD students from NL and DE. (The original ones were not accessible to me from where I live.) And this holds true for technical fields in NL and DE.
In fact, some of the self-translated works by these students were in better English than those of native English speakers. Nothing to be wondered at since I saw a British drama were an Italian actor and a Romanian-German actress - both in their first English-language roles - spoke in superb English, leaving the RADA-trained English actors for dead. That was classic.
You can't say the same for people educated in English medium in India. Catholic schools in India are in many ways worse in English than even the Hindu Indian-medium schools. It's like what Bharatvarsh, I think it was, said: that truly multi-lingual people tend to be quite good in <i>all</i> their languages, monolingual people can't even make it in their chosen one.
Why can't India do the same? I don't see the Dutch and German populace running to say that 'allopathic medicine is English and ought to therefore be taught in English'? They will never do that, they'd rather commit suicide first. German and Dutch it is. Same for CS, Engg, and everything. A great many CS terms are originated in the English language, yet no one has a problem teaching the subject in European classes in their local mediums. They've adapted in the last 10 years to keep generating equivalent words in German (and French), or they just use the English term for recently-invented concepts - with or without modifications - in Dutch and Flemish.
Only Indians seem to have such a low opinion of ourselves that we can't wait to make ourselves as western and as unIndian as fast as may be. I don't see why we need to roll over and die when others are perfectly able to keep up.
In India's case, it may be too late for some fields to be taught in an Indian-language medium since we did not have the foresight of the Germans (not even that of the Dutch) to adapt terms in certain technical fields into our own languages. Or maybe the situation can still be salvaged, I don't know.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->But then again if Infosys (or Apollo Hospitals) for example recruited the English graduate in favor of the regional language one would there be a need for reservation for regional language graduates? With control of the technical knowledge and economy based on that being in the hands of English speakers, what methods can be used to pass at least a part of that control to regional language speakers?<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->And again, if this were true, it's a post-rationalised symptom stemming from Indians' self-loathing and Indians' admiring anything western to the point where we negate what we have. This would <i>never ever</i> happen in NL or DE or FR. They will employ you as long as your Dutch, German (or French) is impeccable. They'd love for you to have good English and other European language skills, but the imperative is on knowing <i>their own</i> language.
Sengotuvel, as your point does not hold for other cases, I see no reason why it should hold for India. In fact, I don't see why Indians' self-loathing should continue. If India must needs emulate western nations and can/will not beat a path for herself - why in the world should we look to the UK or America for our example when there are far better examples in mainland Europe? Most English and particularly American people are proudly monolingual - nothing to be proud of in my opinion; and more importantly, their situation is therefore the least similar to our own. Whereas Dutch people learn 4 languages (compulsory) by the time high school is out. Germans at least 3.
We should be able to manage 3 as well: local, Samskritam and X, where X is presently English. Most Indians are raised <i>at least</i> bi-lingual anyway - except the psecular kind who can't even speak English well. So how hard can it be?
And if some visionary Indian(s) were to try and reclaim transmission of all tertiary education in the local medium, we can move the overly technical sciences that are currently only taught in English into Samskritam.
But as you said, it depends entirely on the government. Pseculars can't speak well in 'Indian' therefore they want to make it English so they can understand those funny Hindoos.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->I repeat that people who talk about this are typically people who have already acquired the benefits of education in English. Those people probably had parents who spoke English, and their children too will have studied in English medium schools.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->I was never educated in the English-medium until very late high school and uni. Then again, I wasn't educated in Tamil either. My sister was clever even as a baby, so she got into an already-overflowing Hindu school (Tamil) in LKG. By the time it was my turn, my parents could only find a place for me at some greedy beat-em-up English-only catholic school. I learnt no English there, only to keep quiet. Fortunately for me, we moved soon.
My parents did speak English, but even their circumstances are not due to public schooling nor English-medium schooling. My father is exceedingly good at languages mostly because he had already been taught a number of languages at home by my Grandfather. My mother only went to Tamil-medium Hindu schools all the way through to her degree.
My English may not be good, but I have spell-check in MS Word for when I need to submit essays or whatever <!--emo&
--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo--> Not planning on becoming an ayah to a memsahib or a domestic any time soon. Well, if the pay was really good... <!--emo&
--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->I believe that one way of indicating "seriousness" in promoting regional languages would be to ensure that technical textbooks are all translated into regional languages, followed by the setting up of regional language colleges that awarded engineering, medical, pharmacy or other degrees that are on par with qualifications obtained in English. Do such universities exist? Is there any serious body that translates technical jargon into regional languages or at least Sanskrit? Are there any regional language textbooks on computer programming? I have never seen one. Who are the people working in this direction? Who funds them?<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->This bit is interesting if it were completely true in the Indian case.
If so, then the Indian government is either being defeatist or sabotaging our identity on purpose.
Though I didn't do uni in DE or NL, I do know with certainty (as I looked into it) that the medium of *every single subject* is German and Dutch alone - from primary to tertiary education. (Unless some stuck-up person studies in an American school or whatever they're called.)
The same is true in France and I'm guessing all European countries.
At uni-level, Germans and Dutch people at least are able to translate their own journal articles into English for publication in English-language journals - in addition to their original article written in their own language which was also meant for publication. They are certainly not bad at all in English when they are at university. I've had to read quite a few such articles translated into English by the PhD students from NL and DE. (The original ones were not accessible to me from where I live.) And this holds true for technical fields in NL and DE.
In fact, some of the self-translated works by these students were in better English than those of native English speakers. Nothing to be wondered at since I saw a British drama were an Italian actor and a Romanian-German actress - both in their first English-language roles - spoke in superb English, leaving the RADA-trained English actors for dead. That was classic.
You can't say the same for people educated in English medium in India. Catholic schools in India are in many ways worse in English than even the Hindu Indian-medium schools. It's like what Bharatvarsh, I think it was, said: that truly multi-lingual people tend to be quite good in <i>all</i> their languages, monolingual people can't even make it in their chosen one.
Why can't India do the same? I don't see the Dutch and German populace running to say that 'allopathic medicine is English and ought to therefore be taught in English'? They will never do that, they'd rather commit suicide first. German and Dutch it is. Same for CS, Engg, and everything. A great many CS terms are originated in the English language, yet no one has a problem teaching the subject in European classes in their local mediums. They've adapted in the last 10 years to keep generating equivalent words in German (and French), or they just use the English term for recently-invented concepts - with or without modifications - in Dutch and Flemish.
Only Indians seem to have such a low opinion of ourselves that we can't wait to make ourselves as western and as unIndian as fast as may be. I don't see why we need to roll over and die when others are perfectly able to keep up.
In India's case, it may be too late for some fields to be taught in an Indian-language medium since we did not have the foresight of the Germans (not even that of the Dutch) to adapt terms in certain technical fields into our own languages. Or maybe the situation can still be salvaged, I don't know.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->But then again if Infosys (or Apollo Hospitals) for example recruited the English graduate in favor of the regional language one would there be a need for reservation for regional language graduates? With control of the technical knowledge and economy based on that being in the hands of English speakers, what methods can be used to pass at least a part of that control to regional language speakers?<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->And again, if this were true, it's a post-rationalised symptom stemming from Indians' self-loathing and Indians' admiring anything western to the point where we negate what we have. This would <i>never ever</i> happen in NL or DE or FR. They will employ you as long as your Dutch, German (or French) is impeccable. They'd love for you to have good English and other European language skills, but the imperative is on knowing <i>their own</i> language.
Sengotuvel, as your point does not hold for other cases, I see no reason why it should hold for India. In fact, I don't see why Indians' self-loathing should continue. If India must needs emulate western nations and can/will not beat a path for herself - why in the world should we look to the UK or America for our example when there are far better examples in mainland Europe? Most English and particularly American people are proudly monolingual - nothing to be proud of in my opinion; and more importantly, their situation is therefore the least similar to our own. Whereas Dutch people learn 4 languages (compulsory) by the time high school is out. Germans at least 3.
We should be able to manage 3 as well: local, Samskritam and X, where X is presently English. Most Indians are raised <i>at least</i> bi-lingual anyway - except the psecular kind who can't even speak English well. So how hard can it be?
And if some visionary Indian(s) were to try and reclaim transmission of all tertiary education in the local medium, we can move the overly technical sciences that are currently only taught in English into Samskritam.
But as you said, it depends entirely on the government. Pseculars can't speak well in 'Indian' therefore they want to make it English so they can understand those funny Hindoos.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->I repeat that people who talk about this are typically people who have already acquired the benefits of education in English. Those people probably had parents who spoke English, and their children too will have studied in English medium schools.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->I was never educated in the English-medium until very late high school and uni. Then again, I wasn't educated in Tamil either. My sister was clever even as a baby, so she got into an already-overflowing Hindu school (Tamil) in LKG. By the time it was my turn, my parents could only find a place for me at some greedy beat-em-up English-only catholic school. I learnt no English there, only to keep quiet. Fortunately for me, we moved soon.
My parents did speak English, but even their circumstances are not due to public schooling nor English-medium schooling. My father is exceedingly good at languages mostly because he had already been taught a number of languages at home by my Grandfather. My mother only went to Tamil-medium Hindu schools all the way through to her degree.
My English may not be good, but I have spell-check in MS Word for when I need to submit essays or whatever <!--emo&
--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo--> Not planning on becoming an ayah to a memsahib or a domestic any time soon. Well, if the pay was really good... <!--emo&--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo-->