04-07-2007, 11:06 AM
Post 111:
So much thereof is fascinating. For instance,
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->The motivation of the Hasmonean revolt has often been misunderstood. It has been contended that this revolt came in protest to the process of Hellenization in Judaea, but this was patently not the case.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->This is the only event in the above that I've heard of I think. (And I'd only read of the misunderstood version of the revolt.)
A question, Dhu. It concerns:
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Under Persian rule, Judah had been a theocracy under the rule of the high priest with the Torah recognized, by the Persians, as the law of the land.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->And<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->This led to the Hasmonean revolt which put an end to religious Hellenization in the sense of abandoning the Torah for a Greek life style.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->Quite a long time back I had read in several Iranian sites that Persia was the one that sponsored monotheism among the Jewish population through Persian patronage of Yahwism and sole support for the Temple. <b><i>I do not know how true this is</i></b>, but the Iranian sites cited sources which gave examples of how before Persian contact more Gods were recognised amongst the Jewish populace than were afterwards (most of these examples can be found even in the OT of the christos' babble), and what changes to Jewish scripture resulted from said Persian contact.
I am assuming this in the following paragraphs. (Regardless, it is said that a great many Persian religious motifs entered Judaism from this contact, like angels and demons and other stuff that usually get listed.)
In the material you posted above, it says that the Greeks were enforcing 'religious Hellenization'.
What is it about a relatively small part of the world with its unique people and culture, that it was such a target for being religiously moulded? Why did both the Persians and the Greeks aim to religiously influence the Jewish people so greatly after their own fashion? Was the Jewish heartland seen as a strategic location and was moulding their religious character therefore considered merely as powerplay by the Greeks and Persians? That is, were both Persia and Greece trying to get Jewish people to fall in line with them by getting at them from the religious angle (maybe somewhat like how the US is trying today with its missionizing all over the world, especially in strategic places). Or did both the Greeks and Persians take such a great interest in these people for other reasons, so much so that they wanted to somehow get them to convert even if they couldn't convince them? Or did they see Judaism as it originally existed as some kind of threat to their own other interests in the region at large?
In short, what was it that everyone wanted to get a hand in this region for and why were they trying to alter the religious character of the people to accomplish this?
Not sure if I've phrased the above clearly. (Don't know much about Jewish history, some of it would occasionally pop up in books whose main topics were other people or events.)
An additional related question just occurred to me:
<b>Or</b> did the Persians already find some monotheists amongst the Jewish population (the Yahwists) and seeing a kindred monotheistic spirit in them, sponsored them and their Temple as the main religious tradition of Judea?
And about the following in your post 111:
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->This led to the Hasmonean revolt which put an end to religious Hellenization in the sense of abandoning the Torah for a Greek life style. It also led to an explosion of new varieties of Judaism â Apocalyptic Judaism, Hasidim (not to be confused with the modern mystical variety), Essenes, Sadducees, Pharisees and no doubt others.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->Do you then suppose it might be these Hellenized individuals of Jewish origin who, in trying to push for further Hellenization of their homeland, accidentally added to process of the creation of christianity?
It would explain why the authors of Paul's epistles were anti-Semitic in that they were anti-Judaic while still claiming that they ('Paul') was of Jewish origin. Paul's character as per these scribes was very Hellenized and quite far removed in understanding of Judaism. He mistook the meaning of several Jewish terms and ideas and gave them his Hellenistic interpretation of them: for instance, sacrifice. That is why much of the NT's concepts make no sense to the Jewish perspective; even though the words he used were known to the Jews, the meaning he gave these words were alien to them.
What if these scribes who made up Paul were Hellenized Jews who had no idea of Judaism and so weren't really Jewish anyway?
What does it matter - who knows what happened? The events have been obscured so much, there's no way to trace them.
The stuff you posted in #111 is briefly referred to here:
http://www.medmalexperts.com/POCM/triumph_...ic_judaism.html
Especially the bit in the grey box titled "Judean Paganism". Go down to that bit and then also read the stuff in the yellowish-coloured box underneath it.
So much thereof is fascinating. For instance,
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->The motivation of the Hasmonean revolt has often been misunderstood. It has been contended that this revolt came in protest to the process of Hellenization in Judaea, but this was patently not the case.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->This is the only event in the above that I've heard of I think. (And I'd only read of the misunderstood version of the revolt.)
A question, Dhu. It concerns:
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Under Persian rule, Judah had been a theocracy under the rule of the high priest with the Torah recognized, by the Persians, as the law of the land.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->And<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->This led to the Hasmonean revolt which put an end to religious Hellenization in the sense of abandoning the Torah for a Greek life style.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->Quite a long time back I had read in several Iranian sites that Persia was the one that sponsored monotheism among the Jewish population through Persian patronage of Yahwism and sole support for the Temple. <b><i>I do not know how true this is</i></b>, but the Iranian sites cited sources which gave examples of how before Persian contact more Gods were recognised amongst the Jewish populace than were afterwards (most of these examples can be found even in the OT of the christos' babble), and what changes to Jewish scripture resulted from said Persian contact.
I am assuming this in the following paragraphs. (Regardless, it is said that a great many Persian religious motifs entered Judaism from this contact, like angels and demons and other stuff that usually get listed.)
In the material you posted above, it says that the Greeks were enforcing 'religious Hellenization'.
What is it about a relatively small part of the world with its unique people and culture, that it was such a target for being religiously moulded? Why did both the Persians and the Greeks aim to religiously influence the Jewish people so greatly after their own fashion? Was the Jewish heartland seen as a strategic location and was moulding their religious character therefore considered merely as powerplay by the Greeks and Persians? That is, were both Persia and Greece trying to get Jewish people to fall in line with them by getting at them from the religious angle (maybe somewhat like how the US is trying today with its missionizing all over the world, especially in strategic places). Or did both the Greeks and Persians take such a great interest in these people for other reasons, so much so that they wanted to somehow get them to convert even if they couldn't convince them? Or did they see Judaism as it originally existed as some kind of threat to their own other interests in the region at large?
In short, what was it that everyone wanted to get a hand in this region for and why were they trying to alter the religious character of the people to accomplish this?
Not sure if I've phrased the above clearly. (Don't know much about Jewish history, some of it would occasionally pop up in books whose main topics were other people or events.)
An additional related question just occurred to me:
<b>Or</b> did the Persians already find some monotheists amongst the Jewish population (the Yahwists) and seeing a kindred monotheistic spirit in them, sponsored them and their Temple as the main religious tradition of Judea?
And about the following in your post 111:
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->This led to the Hasmonean revolt which put an end to religious Hellenization in the sense of abandoning the Torah for a Greek life style. It also led to an explosion of new varieties of Judaism â Apocalyptic Judaism, Hasidim (not to be confused with the modern mystical variety), Essenes, Sadducees, Pharisees and no doubt others.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->Do you then suppose it might be these Hellenized individuals of Jewish origin who, in trying to push for further Hellenization of their homeland, accidentally added to process of the creation of christianity?
It would explain why the authors of Paul's epistles were anti-Semitic in that they were anti-Judaic while still claiming that they ('Paul') was of Jewish origin. Paul's character as per these scribes was very Hellenized and quite far removed in understanding of Judaism. He mistook the meaning of several Jewish terms and ideas and gave them his Hellenistic interpretation of them: for instance, sacrifice. That is why much of the NT's concepts make no sense to the Jewish perspective; even though the words he used were known to the Jews, the meaning he gave these words were alien to them.
What if these scribes who made up Paul were Hellenized Jews who had no idea of Judaism and so weren't really Jewish anyway?
What does it matter - who knows what happened? The events have been obscured so much, there's no way to trace them.
The stuff you posted in #111 is briefly referred to here:
http://www.medmalexperts.com/POCM/triumph_...ic_judaism.html
Especially the bit in the grey box titled "Judean Paganism". Go down to that bit and then also read the stuff in the yellowish-coloured box underneath it.