Bodhi's post immediately above (#61) is far more important and interesting, but there's several things I want to remark on about the following excerpts, hope I remember them all.
Posts 53 and 58:
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Therefore they cannot be taken to be individual deities or people as the Westerners interpret this. You find varying western interpretation on what the Devas denote: from Indra being a commanding chief of the Aryan army, who slays Vritra(the chief of the Dasyus) to taking them to be demi-gods as in Odinism.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd--><!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->We need to differentiate between Indian polytheism and pantheism and Western polytheism and pantheism(such as Odinism)<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd--><!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->She [Wendy Doniger] uses an odinist interpretation<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd--><!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->So we shouldn't use the same interpretation. Deva means, if I understand correctly shining(please correct me if I'm wrong). This conveys a sense of energy, not some deity-being controlling nature from heaven(as in Odinism)<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->Odinism is the term used more often by racist groups who *claim* to be practising the Old Religion of NW Europe, when in reality they're just hategroups who just graduated from a christian background and want some other random rallying point.
Of course, not all groups who practise what they call 'Odinism' are racist. However, Asatru (loyalty to the Aesir/true to the Aesir) or Northern Heathenry are the more accurate names that the Old Religion goes by; and so far I've not come across any racist groups on-line who say they are of Asatru.
Now, onto my point.
It seems you are arguing that since western interpretations of events mentioned in the Vedas and Puranas - like that of Wendy Doniger and 'her Children'/Spawn - assume the Indian Gods therein to be like 'Odinist' Gods (referring to the Aesir), it leads to disgusting and desperate tales about the same Gods.
But I have to ask you:
When have orchestrated christocolonial and today's missionary(-funded) subversive readings and interpretations of any Ancient Religion's literature and traditions *not* led to disgusting perversions of the sacred originals and their meanings?
You will find much in this vein was done to the sacred narratives of the Ancient Hellenes and no less done to the Mayans and other native American communities and peoples of the Americas. And this continues today - do you know how the missionaries twist the spiritual knowledge of the Akha hill tribe of Thailand?
Wendy Doniger and her Spawn are in the pay of missionaries - as well as getting funded by the US which has a lot of dough and wants to see India broken up. And to do this, they need to dissolve or otherwise destroy the uniting element first: our Dharmic religions.
The worst possible reaction that any Hindu could have is to try and avoid any of the traditional understandings (there's more than one) of the Devas, just because Wendy or her students twisted it to some unrecognisable and depraved falsehood.
You see, losers like Wendy are working overtime to create christolies about Ganapathi (Courtright I think it was), Ramakrishna Paramahamsa (Kripal) and Shivaji (forgot the dude's name responsible for the tripe on the Great Shivaji). So who is left? Rama? No, other missionaries or christocolonials have already made lies about him: that he was some Oryan tyrant who subdued the poor 'Dravidoid' Rakshasha family of Ravana (no matter Ravana was from Kashmir and a brahmana Rakshasa; and Rakshashas are not human so they can't be 'Dravidoids'). Rama is even made out to be some anti-feminist.... mwahahahahaha. Krishna, then? No, same thing. Kali, the Mother of the Universe? Let's not even go there, the number of lies about her might outnumber all. Shiva? I've personally *seen* some missionary sites with such lies about him that nothing will induce me to cite any sentence from them here. And I'm not talking about the insistence of western 'scholars' on what they feel the sole meaning of the Lingam is. What do they know - theirs is the most superficial of 'studying' forrays into Hindu tradition, besides which they have not the slightest sympathy for their field of 'study'. What could they possibly have learnt, except that (christocolonial rubbish) which they presumed beforehand?
Must we abandon all the traditional knowledge, understanding and experience we have about our cherished Gods, heroes/deliverers of Bharatam like Shivaji Maharaja and spiritual leaders like RP because Wendy and the others (and who knows how many more in the future) have brought forth such heinous willful misinterpretations of the beings who we have long known of by our traditions and history? In our taking offense from Courtright's attempted trampling on Ganapathi, must we retreat into saying that Ganapathi is purely symbolic, when we know that according to Ancient Tradition he is both symbolic *and* a manifestation of what those sacred symbols represent?
Because when a Hindu does that, they are already Christian, and Wendy and the other losers' mission is already accomplished. I will show you an example of what I mean. It is rather appropriate because you mentioned the Aesir: see the contents at the link http://www.pitt.edu/~dash/njal100.html <b>Iceland Accepts Christianity</b>.
There is a statement on that page embedded in an unmentionable, horrific christo 'verse' about the Great Goddess Freya, which converts to christoterrorism uttered (taught as they were to voice it by their christian mentors). I will not repeat it here, as I would never repeat it anywhere. But one cannot miss it.
How is it any different from what the missionary-funded losers like Wendy are saying and writing about Hinduism (and other Ancient Religions) today? And when Hindus believe such things as she writes about the compassionate and noble Mahendran, then we are already on the path to becoming like the christoconverts that the missionaries made from the Icelandic (and other Northern European) peoples centuries ago. Today, christoconverts of India say such things and much worse already. But why should we accept it, internalise it and then try to change our traditional views of our own Gods to avoid having to face such insults. Well, get used to it - no matter which of the many traditional understandings and views of our Gods you retreat to, the christoislamics will be there - like MF Hussein with his garbage paintings or Wendy with her garbage words - to pervert, slander and stain whatever it is you can still cling to. Make no mistake about it. Complete destruction is what they are after.
(In the case of Indian heroes, we are further limited, as there is only a single view: only our historical knowledge of them. Must we be willing to denounce our heroes altogether then, because the liars have slandered them so foully? Where would Hindus be today if Shivaji had not been? We owe him eternal gratitude and only Hindus can remember him respectfully. No one else. When we are lost to him, he and his massive endeavours would have meant nothing and he might as well have never existed. Precisely what the losers want, as Shivaji is another uniting force of the Hindus.)
You are free to understand the Devas as you have been brought up to, or as makes sense to you now. But to me and any others, we have the right to continue to hold onto another, equally traditional, view (as also mentioned in the Vedas and Puranas): that they can and do manifest in forms human-like or animal-like besides being the intelligence or spirit of the natural phenomenon or faculty that they represent. And in that respect, the Devas (as all Hindu expressions of the Divine) are not much different from the Greek Gods, the Aesir and Vanir, the Yoruba of the Africans, or the Gods of the Koreans, and the like. In particular our Gods in this way remind a lot of the Kami of Shinto, who are/is the formless Divine force as well as able to manifest in various forms that man and animal may understand.
Wendy and her kind have a .... 'gift' for seeing garbage where there is a forest of riches. They get *paid* for the subversion. They are part of the christo imperialism of today that desperately needs to create a new 'understanding' of Hinduism amongst Indians so that they can poison our understanding of our own ancient traditions which have been passed down for countless generations. In that way, they hope that future generations will not be Hindu or certainly not happy to be Hindus and can be converted easily. In this, they are no different from the British christocolonials who spent inordinate amounts of efforts in weaning Hindus away from Hinduism.
But let these people do their worst. They cannot win unless we let them.
(Besides, their lies about our literature don't begin to compare to the facts about the christoislamic characters that jump at any objective person who opens the babble or koran/hadiths. Why would christoislamism *ever* be an option?)
Posts 53 and 58:
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Therefore they cannot be taken to be individual deities or people as the Westerners interpret this. You find varying western interpretation on what the Devas denote: from Indra being a commanding chief of the Aryan army, who slays Vritra(the chief of the Dasyus) to taking them to be demi-gods as in Odinism.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd--><!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->We need to differentiate between Indian polytheism and pantheism and Western polytheism and pantheism(such as Odinism)<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd--><!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->She [Wendy Doniger] uses an odinist interpretation<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd--><!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->So we shouldn't use the same interpretation. Deva means, if I understand correctly shining(please correct me if I'm wrong). This conveys a sense of energy, not some deity-being controlling nature from heaven(as in Odinism)<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->Odinism is the term used more often by racist groups who *claim* to be practising the Old Religion of NW Europe, when in reality they're just hategroups who just graduated from a christian background and want some other random rallying point.
Of course, not all groups who practise what they call 'Odinism' are racist. However, Asatru (loyalty to the Aesir/true to the Aesir) or Northern Heathenry are the more accurate names that the Old Religion goes by; and so far I've not come across any racist groups on-line who say they are of Asatru.
Now, onto my point.
It seems you are arguing that since western interpretations of events mentioned in the Vedas and Puranas - like that of Wendy Doniger and 'her Children'/Spawn - assume the Indian Gods therein to be like 'Odinist' Gods (referring to the Aesir), it leads to disgusting and desperate tales about the same Gods.
But I have to ask you:
When have orchestrated christocolonial and today's missionary(-funded) subversive readings and interpretations of any Ancient Religion's literature and traditions *not* led to disgusting perversions of the sacred originals and their meanings?
You will find much in this vein was done to the sacred narratives of the Ancient Hellenes and no less done to the Mayans and other native American communities and peoples of the Americas. And this continues today - do you know how the missionaries twist the spiritual knowledge of the Akha hill tribe of Thailand?
Wendy Doniger and her Spawn are in the pay of missionaries - as well as getting funded by the US which has a lot of dough and wants to see India broken up. And to do this, they need to dissolve or otherwise destroy the uniting element first: our Dharmic religions.
The worst possible reaction that any Hindu could have is to try and avoid any of the traditional understandings (there's more than one) of the Devas, just because Wendy or her students twisted it to some unrecognisable and depraved falsehood.
You see, losers like Wendy are working overtime to create christolies about Ganapathi (Courtright I think it was), Ramakrishna Paramahamsa (Kripal) and Shivaji (forgot the dude's name responsible for the tripe on the Great Shivaji). So who is left? Rama? No, other missionaries or christocolonials have already made lies about him: that he was some Oryan tyrant who subdued the poor 'Dravidoid' Rakshasha family of Ravana (no matter Ravana was from Kashmir and a brahmana Rakshasa; and Rakshashas are not human so they can't be 'Dravidoids'). Rama is even made out to be some anti-feminist.... mwahahahahaha. Krishna, then? No, same thing. Kali, the Mother of the Universe? Let's not even go there, the number of lies about her might outnumber all. Shiva? I've personally *seen* some missionary sites with such lies about him that nothing will induce me to cite any sentence from them here. And I'm not talking about the insistence of western 'scholars' on what they feel the sole meaning of the Lingam is. What do they know - theirs is the most superficial of 'studying' forrays into Hindu tradition, besides which they have not the slightest sympathy for their field of 'study'. What could they possibly have learnt, except that (christocolonial rubbish) which they presumed beforehand?
Must we abandon all the traditional knowledge, understanding and experience we have about our cherished Gods, heroes/deliverers of Bharatam like Shivaji Maharaja and spiritual leaders like RP because Wendy and the others (and who knows how many more in the future) have brought forth such heinous willful misinterpretations of the beings who we have long known of by our traditions and history? In our taking offense from Courtright's attempted trampling on Ganapathi, must we retreat into saying that Ganapathi is purely symbolic, when we know that according to Ancient Tradition he is both symbolic *and* a manifestation of what those sacred symbols represent?
Because when a Hindu does that, they are already Christian, and Wendy and the other losers' mission is already accomplished. I will show you an example of what I mean. It is rather appropriate because you mentioned the Aesir: see the contents at the link http://www.pitt.edu/~dash/njal100.html <b>Iceland Accepts Christianity</b>.
There is a statement on that page embedded in an unmentionable, horrific christo 'verse' about the Great Goddess Freya, which converts to christoterrorism uttered (taught as they were to voice it by their christian mentors). I will not repeat it here, as I would never repeat it anywhere. But one cannot miss it.
How is it any different from what the missionary-funded losers like Wendy are saying and writing about Hinduism (and other Ancient Religions) today? And when Hindus believe such things as she writes about the compassionate and noble Mahendran, then we are already on the path to becoming like the christoconverts that the missionaries made from the Icelandic (and other Northern European) peoples centuries ago. Today, christoconverts of India say such things and much worse already. But why should we accept it, internalise it and then try to change our traditional views of our own Gods to avoid having to face such insults. Well, get used to it - no matter which of the many traditional understandings and views of our Gods you retreat to, the christoislamics will be there - like MF Hussein with his garbage paintings or Wendy with her garbage words - to pervert, slander and stain whatever it is you can still cling to. Make no mistake about it. Complete destruction is what they are after.
(In the case of Indian heroes, we are further limited, as there is only a single view: only our historical knowledge of them. Must we be willing to denounce our heroes altogether then, because the liars have slandered them so foully? Where would Hindus be today if Shivaji had not been? We owe him eternal gratitude and only Hindus can remember him respectfully. No one else. When we are lost to him, he and his massive endeavours would have meant nothing and he might as well have never existed. Precisely what the losers want, as Shivaji is another uniting force of the Hindus.)
You are free to understand the Devas as you have been brought up to, or as makes sense to you now. But to me and any others, we have the right to continue to hold onto another, equally traditional, view (as also mentioned in the Vedas and Puranas): that they can and do manifest in forms human-like or animal-like besides being the intelligence or spirit of the natural phenomenon or faculty that they represent. And in that respect, the Devas (as all Hindu expressions of the Divine) are not much different from the Greek Gods, the Aesir and Vanir, the Yoruba of the Africans, or the Gods of the Koreans, and the like. In particular our Gods in this way remind a lot of the Kami of Shinto, who are/is the formless Divine force as well as able to manifest in various forms that man and animal may understand.
Wendy and her kind have a .... 'gift' for seeing garbage where there is a forest of riches. They get *paid* for the subversion. They are part of the christo imperialism of today that desperately needs to create a new 'understanding' of Hinduism amongst Indians so that they can poison our understanding of our own ancient traditions which have been passed down for countless generations. In that way, they hope that future generations will not be Hindu or certainly not happy to be Hindus and can be converted easily. In this, they are no different from the British christocolonials who spent inordinate amounts of efforts in weaning Hindus away from Hinduism.
But let these people do their worst. They cannot win unless we let them.
(Besides, their lies about our literature don't begin to compare to the facts about the christoislamic characters that jump at any objective person who opens the babble or koran/hadiths. Why would christoislamism *ever* be an option?)