Valid points Husky. Allow me to share my opinion on these.
<!--QuoteBegin-Husky+Feb 27 2007, 05:49 AM-->QUOTE(Husky @ Feb 27 2007, 05:49 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->One can't expect vegetarianism from all Old African communities, since man can only eat what is available and only do what is humanly possible.
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Certainly. Food is the most basic necessity of all life. Kind of food eaten has always been and will be governed by what is available and humanly possible. Swami Shankaracharya's discourse on this topic, in the North East where cultivation was not easily possible, and Lamas' opinion in Tibet where enough vegetation does not grow, agree on this.
Eating meat as a result of nature's compulsion is however very different from eating meat for taste or due to habitual inertia.
<!--QuoteBegin-Husky+Feb 27 2007, 05:49 AM-->QUOTE(Husky @ Feb 27 2007, 05:49 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->Is this why ancient Hindu principles (which Bhishma revisits here for the Pandavas) placed a ban on honey - because it is gathered by bees to support their own hive? Do you know the reason why ancient Hindus believed it was to be avoided?
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One must see how commercial honey is produced to realize this. Bees make their nest and beehive to primarily house their eggs, larve, and honey - which selfish humans call 'honeycomb'!. In the wax (or paper) structure of beehive not only is stored honey but also live countless eggs, larve, and even grown up bees and insects.
Now there are two ways of getting honey for human usage. One harmless way is this - Once the hive is full with ripe honey, it becomes overloaded, and honey starts to drip from the hive on its own. If a pot is kept beneath the hive, all the extra honey can slowly be collected, without doing any harm to the bees. In fact Ayurveda prescribes, as medicine, honey collected from a particular tree like Neem, Vilva or Peepal etc for a particular ailment, this is what is recommended.
The second way, and obviously more economic or commercial method is to not collect honey but 'extract' honey. The beekeeper removes the whole hive, puts it in a rotating and mildly heated chamber, and with the centrifugal rotation extracts out all the honey that is in the hive. Process obviously kills all eggs, larve, insects, and that honey therefore is full of contamination from their body remains. The left over hive, most times is then heated to take out any remaining honey and of course the wax.
So, the natural honey collected, may be vegetarian, but certainly not the commercial honey. Mithila region in Bihar, especially Madhubani area (Madhubani literally means honey-forest) was once famous for the non-violent honey collection described above. Even now, in villages such honey is collected and used as medicine. But being scarce in availability happens to be expensive.
Some Pharmaceutical firms, like Dabur and Vaidyanath, claim to manufacture Ayurvedic and non-violent honey. I am not sure about that though.
So the reason why Hindus and Jains may have avoided honey may have been for the reason of honey being considered to be produced through killing animals or insects, and even contaminated by their meat. Very hard to imagine a honey that is not contaminated.
But all this is my opinion only. More thought needs to be applied probably.
<!--QuoteBegin-Husky+Feb 27 2007, 05:49 AM-->QUOTE(Husky @ Feb 27 2007, 05:49 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->Buddhism's roots in these matters lie wholly in Sanatana Dharma.
So it's not wrong to point out to western people or to communists and pseculars, for instance, that Buddhism did not introduce vegetarianism to India.[right][snapback]65042[/snapback][/right]
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Oh yes. Bhagwan Buddha's teachings have very deep roots in Sanatan Dharma. Dhammo Sanantano and Dhammo Poranko (Established Tradition, Pauranik Tradition) are very respected words in Bauddha thought. One must read, first hand, the words spoken by Bhagwan Buddha, and no doubt remains of this, of where He is coming from. Same is true of other principal Bauddha teachers.
<!--QuoteBegin-Husky+Feb 27 2007, 05:49 AM-->QUOTE(Husky @ Feb 27 2007, 05:49 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->One can't expect vegetarianism from all Old African communities, since man can only eat what is available and only do what is humanly possible.
[right][snapback]65042[/snapback][/right]
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Certainly. Food is the most basic necessity of all life. Kind of food eaten has always been and will be governed by what is available and humanly possible. Swami Shankaracharya's discourse on this topic, in the North East where cultivation was not easily possible, and Lamas' opinion in Tibet where enough vegetation does not grow, agree on this.
Eating meat as a result of nature's compulsion is however very different from eating meat for taste or due to habitual inertia.
<!--QuoteBegin-Husky+Feb 27 2007, 05:49 AM-->QUOTE(Husky @ Feb 27 2007, 05:49 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->Is this why ancient Hindu principles (which Bhishma revisits here for the Pandavas) placed a ban on honey - because it is gathered by bees to support their own hive? Do you know the reason why ancient Hindus believed it was to be avoided?
[right][snapback]65042[/snapback][/right]
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
One must see how commercial honey is produced to realize this. Bees make their nest and beehive to primarily house their eggs, larve, and honey - which selfish humans call 'honeycomb'!. In the wax (or paper) structure of beehive not only is stored honey but also live countless eggs, larve, and even grown up bees and insects.
Now there are two ways of getting honey for human usage. One harmless way is this - Once the hive is full with ripe honey, it becomes overloaded, and honey starts to drip from the hive on its own. If a pot is kept beneath the hive, all the extra honey can slowly be collected, without doing any harm to the bees. In fact Ayurveda prescribes, as medicine, honey collected from a particular tree like Neem, Vilva or Peepal etc for a particular ailment, this is what is recommended.
The second way, and obviously more economic or commercial method is to not collect honey but 'extract' honey. The beekeeper removes the whole hive, puts it in a rotating and mildly heated chamber, and with the centrifugal rotation extracts out all the honey that is in the hive. Process obviously kills all eggs, larve, insects, and that honey therefore is full of contamination from their body remains. The left over hive, most times is then heated to take out any remaining honey and of course the wax.
So, the natural honey collected, may be vegetarian, but certainly not the commercial honey. Mithila region in Bihar, especially Madhubani area (Madhubani literally means honey-forest) was once famous for the non-violent honey collection described above. Even now, in villages such honey is collected and used as medicine. But being scarce in availability happens to be expensive.
Some Pharmaceutical firms, like Dabur and Vaidyanath, claim to manufacture Ayurvedic and non-violent honey. I am not sure about that though.
So the reason why Hindus and Jains may have avoided honey may have been for the reason of honey being considered to be produced through killing animals or insects, and even contaminated by their meat. Very hard to imagine a honey that is not contaminated.
But all this is my opinion only. More thought needs to be applied probably.
<!--QuoteBegin-Husky+Feb 27 2007, 05:49 AM-->QUOTE(Husky @ Feb 27 2007, 05:49 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->Buddhism's roots in these matters lie wholly in Sanatana Dharma.
So it's not wrong to point out to western people or to communists and pseculars, for instance, that Buddhism did not introduce vegetarianism to India.[right][snapback]65042[/snapback][/right]
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh yes. Bhagwan Buddha's teachings have very deep roots in Sanatan Dharma. Dhammo Sanantano and Dhammo Poranko (Established Tradition, Pauranik Tradition) are very respected words in Bauddha thought. One must read, first hand, the words spoken by Bhagwan Buddha, and no doubt remains of this, of where He is coming from. Same is true of other principal Bauddha teachers.