Fair & Lovely - Desiring Whiteness

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Fair & Lovely - Desiring Whiteness - Guest - 02-11-2004

One British white racist Richard Lynn has written a book " Intelligence and the Wealth and Poverty of Nations" -

http://www.rlynn.co.uk/pages/article_intelligence/1.htm

The national IQs for 60 countries are given below:
http://www.rlynn.co.uk/pages/article_intelligence/t3.htm

He claims India's IQ is only 82. Whereas UK has an IQ of 100 & Germany 103.
He also claims that most scientific inventions were by white people.

How do we refute this guy?

Are white men more intelligent than us?

Fair & Lovely - Desiring Whiteness - Guest - 02-11-2004

Have you read the "Bell Curve"? That was very controversial few years ago.

Fair & Lovely - Desiring Whiteness - G.Subramaniam - 02-12-2004

Consider the situation in UK
We have 4 groups
1. Native whites
2. Black afro-caribbeans
3. Muslim south asians
4. Hindu-sikh south asians

Hindu-sikh south asians stand at the top of the socio-economic ladder
Next are native whites
Next are black afro-caribbeans
Last are south asian muslims

Religion and culture seem to be the key

I had contacted these people by email and presented hard data on this
I further said that south asian IQ was pulled down by islam, 30% of the total
These guys then tried to dodge the issue

Also keep in mind much of India until recently had been on starvation diets
which stunts mental growth

Remember south east asia got civilization from India
This book ranks east asians high

Fair & Lovely - Desiring Whiteness - Guest - 02-12-2004

QUOTE Have you read the "Bell Curve"? That was very controversial few years ago.


No I haven't. Does it provide separate stats for Indians, or are they clubbed together with other asians?

QUOTEReligion and culture seem to be the key

I had contacted these people by email and presented hard data on this
I further said that south asian IQ was pulled down by islam, 30% of the total
These guys then tried to dodge the issue

Also keep in mind much of India until recently had been on starvation diets
which stunts mental growth


That is true. I say that islam lowers a man's IQ by at least 15 points, if not more.
If possible, can you post some o the hard data here? It would be very interesting to read.

QUOTERemember south east asia got civilization from India
This book ranks east asians high


Plus this guy used data from 1950s for India, while he used 1990s data for East asia.
The complete list of the IQs for all countries is here:
http://www.rlynn.co.uk/pages/article_intelligence/t4.htm

He has listed Mexico's IQ as 87, Iraq as 87, Indonesia as 89, Thailand as 91 & Vietnam as 96.

Indians clearly have higher IQ than these countries!

Fair & Lovely - Desiring Whiteness - Guest - 02-12-2004

Anyone seen the movie 'Trading Places' (Eddie Murphy, Dan Akroyd, Jamie Lee Curtis) - the eternal question of whether environment or genes that determine character? I guess can be stretched to IQ?

If off-topic let me know and I'll remove the post <!--emo& Sad

--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif' />

Fair & Lovely - Desiring Whiteness - Guest - 02-12-2004

Bell curve gives a good idea as to how these studies are done. And no, Indians are clubbed with Asians. This IQ and race is kind of stupid study anyway (IMHO)

Fair & Lovely - Desiring Whiteness - Hauma Hamiddha - 02-12-2004

We may want to be very careful with this topic. Especially those living the US. It is generally not considered appropriate to discuss these topics publicly.

There is some correlation between IQ profession. Those with IQ below 120 are unlikely to be in high profile scientific/technological professions. Amongst academicians, those below 120 are unlikely to be in science/technology (sort of explains the low IQ of the leftists in the liberal arts streams) <!--emo& Smile

--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' />.

There has been no careful testing of IQs of the Indian population. In our school there used be a lot of Mensa activity. In this activity one of our forum members in this testing scored 180-190 quite consistently <!--emo& Wink

--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /> , which is a sign of really high intelligence. But most of the people in the class were in the 100-130 range. We can get a rough measure of IQ from the 12th class results. In Maharashtra, 50-55% of the students passed the exam suggesting an IQ threshold of around 95. The rest of the population taking 12th exam apparently had a lower IQ than 95. Making sweeping statements about the average IQ of Indians as whole being greater than 100, may hence be a little too optimistic, but then the above is an indirect inference and not a direct test. Nobody has obejctively tested whether in India there is difference in IQ amongst different ethnic or socio-economic classes to find the correlations with these parameters.

In the US there has been the persistant claim that blacks have lower IQs than whites and Asians. While the claim may have some truth, the causes for this difference are far very clear.

IQ shows a strong heritability, that is there is a high r^2 value when IQ ofspring is plotted against average parent IQ. This suggests a significant genetic component for IQ. But this cannot be extrapolated between races because :1) the definition of races is often problematic 2) The 'races' being compared may have considerable inequality in other environmental factors. Especially in the case of blacks educational restriction and socioeconomic backwardness have not been objectively accounted for in IQ comparisons. The authors of the Bell Curve claim otherwise, but there are enough serious dissenting opinion, to view their claims with utmost caution. Murray, one of the authors, has openly claimed that there have been no discoveries of any significance outside Europe. So we know what his basic agenda is.

IQ has many different components (eg verbal, spatial, mathematical) and these may have variable contributions in different individual with the same IQ. Different jobs require vectors of this IQ, so having a particular IQ is not an automatic determinant of competency in a given activity.

I have to say that much of human personality and behavior has a strong genetic component. We should not shy away from this issue, but be cautious about extending conclusions to groups. Read Steven Pinker's book on the topic (a very balanced and professional presentation of the subject).

Fair & Lovely - Desiring Whiteness - G.Subramaniam - 02-12-2004

How do you account for the islam factor in UK and in comparing Indian Punjab vs Pakistani Punjab ?

Fair & Lovely - Desiring Whiteness - Guest - 02-12-2004

one has to consider EQ also if trying to assess potential of achievement in society.
nobody works or lives alone anymore.

the CEO/entrepreneur types have a decent IQ but a high EQ - they can get others to work for
a common goal and manage the show.

Fair & Lovely - Desiring Whiteness - Guest - 02-12-2004

HH,

I did read "How the mind works" and "The blank slate" by Steven Pinker. Are these the ones you are referring to?

Fair & Lovely - Desiring Whiteness - Hauma Hamiddha - 02-12-2004

QUOTE(k.ram @ Feb 12 2004, 10:12 AM) HH,

I did read "How the mind works" and "The blank slate" by Steven Pinker. Are these the ones you are referring to? 
I was refering to Blank Slate

BTW Ram, nay be you would want to start a Hindu mythology thread for your question.

Fair & Lovely - Desiring Whiteness - Guest - 02-13-2004

QUOTE(Hauma Hamiddha @ Feb 12 2004, 11:20 PM) <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(k.ram @ Feb 12 2004, 10:12 AM) HH,

I did read "How the mind works" and "The blank slate" by Steven Pinker. Are these the ones you are referring to? 
I was refering to Blank Slate

BTW Ram, nay be you would want to start a Hindu mythology thread for your question. </div>
Thanks HH, have done so.

Moderators might want to move to appropriate section and/or change the title as they see fit.

Thank you

Fair & Lovely - Desiring Whiteness - Guest - 02-13-2004

The GRE scores somewhat overestimate IQ scores especially the older ones. It is true that AIMS and IIT may have IQ in the 135-148 range but then how many of these Graduates are there in whole of India. I think the proportion of people above 130 must be similar in India and US. Just that in the US we usually see Indians with high IQ- most Graduate students with fellowships and aid or somewhat low IQ- taxiwallahs and store workers. The middle range tends to remain behind in the Desh.

Fair & Lovely - Desiring Whiteness - G.Subramaniam - 02-25-2004

In UK, Indian students top the class
http://headlines.sify.com/2925news5.html?h...s~top~the~class

London: Teenagers of ethnic Chinese and Indian origin are doing better in British schools than their white counterparts, suggests data released by the government on Wednesday.

Discuss: Parental support helps Indian students excel

"Pupils from every ethnic group have improved in their GCSE/GNVQ results," said the Department for Education and Skills, referring to the national high school leaving examinations.

Nationwide, the department said in a statement, 50.7 percent of pupils of all ethnic backgrounds got five or more grades of A-plus to C in their final exams in 2003.

For ethnic Chinese students, however, the percentage was 74.8 percent -- with 90 percent achieving success in mathematics, compared with 71 percent for all ethnic groups.

For ethnic Indian students, 65.2 percent got five or more top GCSE grades, followed by whites with 51.3 percent, pupils of Bangladeshi origin (45.5 percent) and those of Pakistani origin (41.5 percent).

"Indian pupils, and pupils of mixed white and (south) Asian heritage, consistently achieve above the national average at all levels," the department elaborated.

Students of black African and Caribbean origin trailed at 40.7 and 32.9 percent, but those figures were up 3.3 and 3.7 percentage points from 2002 -- a bigger rate of increase than any other ethnic group apart from Chinese.

Commenting on the findings, Schools Minister Stephen Twigg said "we must not be complacent" about closing what he called the "achievement gap" in British schools.

Fair & Lovely - Desiring Whiteness - Guest - 02-26-2004

Why are Chinese students ahead of the Indians in scores?

The "Indian" group must be including muslims also. Thus bring down the average.

Fair & Lovely - Desiring Whiteness - G.Subramaniam - 02-26-2004

The Indian group includes Indian muslims and this brings down the average
I did see another report that showed Indian muslims did better than
Pak and BD muslims

Fair & Lovely - Desiring Whiteness - Guest - 02-26-2004

http://www.sulekha.com/redirectnh.asp?cid=327840

http://www.business-standard.com/today/sto...=26&story=35048

WORM'S EYE VIEW

A âmoronâ theory that makes sense
Donât blame nature for below-average results. Nurture that which can be improved, says Devangshu Datta

Published : February 25, 2004

Set up a flag. Ask everyone in the world to goose-step past that flag in serried ranks, saluting as they go. The marchpast will continue until eternity.
There are more babies born every minute than people marching past the flag. The twin acts of procreation and birth take more time than walking two paces. But even soldiers devote more time to baby-making than to flag-marches.

And, more and more of those babies will be morons. Because most people are of below average intelligence and they mostly marry people of less than average intelligence and raise children of less than average intelligence.

It was in the 1940s that the theory of the Marching Morons (MM) was articulated. Itâs a linear, dystopic projection. The assumptions are interesting. âAverageâ is, of course, the arithmetic mean rather than the median or mode.

In terms of the mean, most people are âlower than averageâ. The mean is inflated by the presence of a few super-intelligent persons.

Itâs the same situation as with the Indian cricket team. Six members of the XI have personal averages lower than the team-average because Tendulkar, Laxman and Dravid score so heavily.

Another truth embedded in the MM theory: People of lower education have more kids. This is a basic axiom in development. Religion may matter.

But more highly educated people (if we can use education as a surrogate for intelligence) have fewer children. Italy versus Brazil, Iran versus Bangladesh and Bihar versus Tamil Nadu â the equation holds across large populations.

Hence, genetically, most people arenât super-bright. Whatâs more, people of lower education are also, by and large, less than brilliant at teaching their kids to be smart.

So, regardless of intelligence being created by nature or nurture (thatâs a heated debate), succcessive generations should show a trend towards increasing idiocy.

A reader of page three, if one can use the word âreaderâ loosely, would assume that to be the case. So would anyone who watches Star Plus or MTV. But successive generations donât really show a tendency to increasing stupidity.

It is part of the mores of the MTV generation to flaunt bizarre tastes in your face. But it takes real intelligence to structure and deliver that content as we access it.

Think of the range of arcane technologies that have matured over the last 20 years and recall that the research was done by young people. Nope, kids may be getting weirder but theyâre not getting dumber.

In the 1940s, people assumed that MM would mirror reality. Science-Fiction writers explored the consequences. Kurt Vonnegut in Harrison Bergeron postulated a society where bright people would be handicapped (by means of continuous distractions and electric shocks) to make them behave like âregular guysâ.

C M Kornbluth dreamt of an intelligentsia that ran ad-campaigns designed to lure morons into gas-chambers. John Brunnerâs Stand on Zanzibar, (written in 1967, when the global population could have stood on Zanzibar), conceptualised food-wars.

The current demographic assumption is: the more, the merrier. A rapid cut in growth rates leads to ageing unproductive populations.

This has occurred in Europe and Japan. China will see this happen in circa 2025. America has escaped only because of a relatively looser immigration policy.

Young people can be trained to be productive and the world can absorb larger populations. While we canât help genetics, we can improve nurture by making education available to everyone.

Food sufficiency isnât a problem â just improve distribution of the grain-mountains and butter-lakes that the First World destroys.

India has gained global mindshare along with Brazil because of the shift in demographic theory. Both are very young nations that can be trained to be global centres of production.

It is Dr Joshiâs task to ensure that training occurs. He is doing the best he can by cutting IIM entrance fees. It is not his fault that todayâs incumbent management trainees would rather see subsidies pumped into schools and take loans themselves to get through their MBAs. That merely bears testimony to their bizarre tastes.

Or perhaps kids are actually getting stupider?

Fair & Lovely - Desiring Whiteness - Guest - 02-26-2004

I wonder if people have checked out:
Race: The Reality of Human Differences by Vincent Sarich, Frank Miele

It is quite an explosive book that is bound to ruffle a lot of feathers. However, one simply cannot dismiss everything in it offhand.

Fair & Lovely - Desiring Whiteness - Guest - 02-26-2004

Let us face the truth, Islam may depress IQ by about 2-3 points. I doubt it can reduce it by 10 or more points. The IQ differentials do not go away easily by changing environment. That is what a lot of research has shown.

Fair & Lovely - Desiring Whiteness - G.Subramaniam - 02-26-2004

The UK results show that Pakistanis are midway between blacks and Whites
At least a 15 point IQ drop

Let us look at the difference between east and west punjab
In west punjab literacy is about 40% and in east punjab about 75%